New Panigale V4 is ugly?

I think Thorny wants to go sub 2:20 at Cota at some point

I was asked if I would sell my R at the last track day, made an offer and happy to wait until the end of the season.

Even if the new R is released this year, I’m not sure I see the point in changing. I’m sure it’s going to be pretty awesome though and it has some nice features.

CSV4 said:

I think Thorny wants to go sub 2:20 at Cota at some point

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That's right! I felt the potential was there, always. Basically, with sub-2:25 pace in COTA you get very few opportunities to do a lap without passing on a typical track day, on the clear track progression would have been a lot faster IMO. I did ~25 track days in COTA over 3 years and if it wasn't wet, I kept improving lap time every single time. The crazy thing in all those events I did not have a single "moment" at full lean angle or trail braking with Pirelli slicks. Grip limit was always higher than I was willing to push. I had to run shorter optional AttackPerformance pegs to avoid scraping pegs and boot slider (nice to see the new model has pegs taking in 10mm inboard - benefit of the new swing arm), but there was still more lean angle left there and improve other areas of course. Unfortunately (and fortunately for other reasons) I live now very far from COTA and hasn't been back, but this feeling that I didn't finish the job still eats me.. Funny enough, in my last COTA event (it was in November), Saturday was a complete deluge and we had to sit out all sessions, and Sunday it stopped raining, and it was very cold (barely over 10C / 50F) and track was still damp in the morning. I went out on slicks at pace right away trying to keep temperature in the tires, and I had two moments in a single lap (both losing rear and then front momentarily!). It was scary as hell and I pitted immediately after just one lap, but finally getting to feel what unexpected loss of traction on this bike feels like was awesome.

The main weakness in the stock bike setup for me, apart from already mentioned ergonomics, was front fork spring being too soft. It was running out of travel under braking in T12 and T1. With 0.5 stiffer front spring and raising front in the clamps helped to improve stability under braking and fork from collapsing in its travel. I ran Vesra pads, oh, and the quick shifter was inconsistent at WOT shifting close to red line and going from 2nd to 1st, so I ran aftermarket QS (curios about that 2.0 QS they are introducing with the sensor on the drum instead of linkage). In summary, bike didn't have that many weaknesses, but if I could get 2 seconds off with just the bike upgrade, I would have signed on the dotted line right away =)

thorny said:

I felt the potential was there, always. Basically, with sub-2:25 pace in COTA you get very few opportunities to do a lap without passing on a typical track day, on the clear track progression would have been a lot faster IMO.

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I'd highly recommend doing a DRE day at COTA if you want to nab that time. Pretty exclusive and there's only like 30 people on track with you. You also get to follow world-class riders. But do so at your own peril. I briefly followed Jake Zemke down the front "straight" of Laguna Seca last month and braked for T2 at his marker and nearly didn't make the corner. I also got roasted down the straight by legend John Kocinski which was a highlight.

SuperDomestique said:

I'd highly recommend doing a DRE day at COTA if you want to nab that time. Pretty exclusive and there's only like 30 people on track with you. You also get to follow world-class riders. But do so at your own peril. I briefly followed Jake Zemke down the front "straight" of Laguna Seca last month and braked for T2 at his marker and nearly didn't make the corner. I also got roasted down the straight by legend John Kocinski which was a highlight.

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Agree on that. Running clear track is the best. I've been on track with MotoAmerica dudes testing in COTA and yeah, no chance to follow them as they are all sub 2:20 by whatever margin.

SuperDomestique said:

I'd highly recommend doing a DRE day at COTA if you want to nab that time. Pretty exclusive and there's only like 30 people on track with you. You also get to follow world-class riders. But do so at your own peril. I briefly followed Jake Zemke down the front "straight" of Laguna Seca last month and braked for T2 at his marker and nearly didn't make the corner. I also got roasted down the straight by legend John Kocinski which was a highlight.

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And John is getting close to 60? That being said he's been around Laguna a few times...

Paul G said:

Unless you are getting up there and breathing down the neck of lap records then the basic rules of sports bike ownership apply i.e. its got to look good, sound good and feel good to ride. People are going to trade up as a matter of course but there is absolutely no need to rush out and sell your 24 model to get the 25.

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Here's the difference between the 22 and 25 at RoC qualifying. The 25 is on average 1.46 sec faster around Misano and appears significant. Granted, 22 was ridiculously hot with it being like 35ºC and the bikes were barely coping with the heat (they had to shorten the race). The 25 bikes also had WSBK brake systems installed and temps weren't as hot.

They had calipers and rotors, not wsbk brake systems

KarlKani said:

They had calipers and rotors, not wsbk brake systems

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That’s not what the internet said….

SuperDomestique said:

Here's the difference between the 22 and 25 at RoC qualifying. The 25 is on average 1.46 sec faster around Misano and appears significant. Granted, 22 was ridiculously hot with it being like 35ºC and the bikes were barely coping with the heat (they had to shorten the race). The 25 bikes also had WSBK brake systems installed and temps weren't as hot.

View attachment 55907

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Exactly, I wouldn't discount anything for heat, etc. The new bike is significantly faster, period. For anyone running hot pace in advanced group or better.. This is going to benefit realistically about 5-10% of their Panigale customer base, and even then, this is just for "personal goals" for 99% of those. But the big picture is that Ducati goes by 3 values CEO always talks about: style, sophistication and performance. And their marketing machine and DNA is underpinned by the racing wins. This is a tough job to improve on all 3 and find the best balance of all. I think on this one they went Performance, Sophistication at the expense of Style. This swing arm technology, for example, looks very similar to the current offerings from BMW and if they want to stop Toprak in WSBK they need that. Having two different swing arms for S and R would have been too costly I speculate, hence the decision. Front end, again, without changing the engine essentially, boosting performance in any meaningful way is slim pickings and they chose performance with the disguise that they were inspired by some old model. I don't think we can blame them for trying to build a faster more performing and sophisticated bike, but sales will tell if they and CEO made the right call. I'll reserve my final judgment on the "Style" until the day I see one in person, but for me the new Pani is a strong contender as my next bike.

The more I see this post pop up the more hideous this bike gets to me. It’s been great since the 1199 but they’ve destroyed the form of Panigale. Sad.

I was thinking more about this whole Kevin Cameron “Ducati is a technology company” philosophy… How is this new bike innovative?

The design is basically a hodgepodge of an RSV4 and BMW except those companies have actually put together balance and cohesive designs. The RSV4 and S/M1000RR look right (proportionally and design concept). Even an ancient R1 looks better. The new Panigale looks… weird. The front’s “weight” appears lighter than the back. It’s like the designers of the front of the bike didn’t talk to the designers of the back of the bike.

If Ducati wanted to be innovative, they should’ve figured out a way to keep the SSSA, which is a unique and standout feature of Ducati. If Ducati was this tech company, I would’ve expected some sort of tech leverage like topological-optimization and additive manufacturing of the swingarm. A cast aluminum DSSA might be better performance but it isn’t novel tech. It’s upbiquitous and boring.

The only technical upgrades are the electronics, chassis flex, and the tank shape. But even then are they really innovative? Maybe more iterative than anything. Electronics won’t make you faster, rather they just make you safer. It’s this safety net and mindset that, indirectly, can make you faster. Altering chassis flex could’ve been done with an SSSA (weight is irrelevant bc 1-2 lbs is insignificant and the Corse swingarm won’t be cast). And getting tank shape right is a no brainer. That should be a thing they got right in the original PV4. Not sure why it’s taking them 3-4 tries to get it right. Do any of their designers and engineers actually sit on the bike???

MdDuc said:

The more I see this post pop up the more hideous this bike gets to me. It’s been great since the 1199 but they’ve destroyed the form of Panigale. Sad.

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arent you the guy who's desperate to get rid of his bike because you're too busy to ride?

thorny said:

This is going to benefit realistically about 5-10% of their Panigale customer base, and even then, this is just for "personal goals" for 99% of those.

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You reckon 650ib will be the fastest in smackdowns now?

Looks better with an underslung swingarm

panibadboy said:

You reckon 650ib will be the fastest in smackdowns now?

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lol. I dont keep up with the smackdown game much, but I reckon stretched busas and strapped double Rs are sweating now. In seriousness, I do like launches from stand still and some 1/4 mile fun here and there. My bike consistently ran 9.8 at 155mph in quarter mile and did 2.92 sec 0-60 on Solo DL 2 lap timer. Both measures were significantly quicker than what I could do on SuperDuke R for example designed to go 12 o’clock in all gears. I reckon new bike will go tiny bit quicker in straight line due to better aero, but Ducati speak in meaningless % points and hard to tell what it translates in actual acceleration figures.

MdDuc said:

The more I see this post pop up the more hideous this bike gets to me. It’s been great since the 1199 but they’ve destroyed the form of Panigale. Sad.

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I think it looks ok by itself, but when you put the two pictures side-by-side of the old bike and this new one- it is a stark contrast in a negative way to me visually.

Sure there are stats nerds who will go for the little improvements, but I'm not that nerd.

It’s growing on me but I think non-motorcycle people would find the older ones better looking.

ducfan69 said:

I think it looks ok by itself, but when you put the two pictures side-by-side of the old bike and this new one- it is a stark contrast in a negative way to me visually.

Sure there are stats nerds who will go for the little improvements, but I'm not that nerd.

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Dunno about stat nerds but us track guys will probably switch to it, or the R version anyway.

As far as looks, I think it’s pretty cool that Ducati of all people placed performance above looks in a bike.

This bike is only a livery away from looking cool…have you ever seen a MotoGP bike with the livery…its function over form 100%…they are downright fugly without liveries.

The two bikes posted earlier look dramatically different in large part (but not exclusively) from one having a decent livery and the other not.




Now look at MotoGP bikes without liveries:

Speaking of “us track guys,” whatever happened to the guy who bought a late model 1199R and then a 1299FE in quick succession? I think his username was 1299FE