Pirelli WSBK 200/65 Tires for Canyon riding ?

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Vbreeze said:
Today at Mugello, we're getting cranky in the box because yesterday Spring showers on-off on - off all fking day. You couldn't set anything up right. We rode a single glorious hour yesterday. Mind you guys are coming from really far away. 6 hour drives. 13 hours drives from other countries. Spending I don't know what to be here.
So finally our group goes out. I'm 3rd in line, some buddies behind me.

We rip down the meter wide cone section out pit lane and down the straight trying to get a little heat build up and slow way down for the first turn San Donato.
The guy in front of me on a nice BMW decked out in the latest, cruising up to the turn at about 45mph. (That's really slow)

-BIFF- slide - parts everywhere.

He leaned like 30 degrees and washed out.
Red flags, track closed.
Oil is all over the track.

Back to pit lane.

Everyone loves this guy who went out without tire warmers. Everyone spent at least $1000 for this day and the track is now closed because one A-Hole thinks, I'll go out without tire warmers and scrub-in some heat braking hard and BIFF.

The info that "it's the same compound on the shoulder." I don't know. That sounds like crazy to me. Marketing .........
I ran Rosso Corsa III on the track and after one session they were done. Plenty of tread but they get cooked hard and in casual street riding after I was sliding all over the place. They're just done. They can't handle getting that hot more than a few times. Recycled.
I've got SC's I rode last half of 2022 on track hitting 300kph, they sat all winter and now 2 session at Mugello yesterday and today. Just fine.

I had diner with a Pirelli track guy last night and a bunch of racers and instructors. The Pirelli management were asking him how they can sell more tires. The conversation was about costs getting insane and the complexities of understanding what's going to work best. People are quitting the sport because of it. There are a lot of compromises made trying to provide the highest possible performance which is impossible in every situation with the same product. Some products have overlapping abilities but the very highest performing products have the narrowest band width of use and set up. When you go slightly outside the situation OR set up required for top performance products, you are pretty much guaranteed to throw your bike into the trees. Tire pressure, pavement temperature, pavement texture, humidity, heat soaking temp and time before use, kinetic input consistency, warm-up routine, & riding input. Am I forgetting anything? At the top level race products, if one of those is too out of scope, yard sale.

There is a lot to learn and you can never stop learning in this sport. The more performance you go the more you have to study and ask around and get instruction on from the most top people you can find. Not whomever. I would never trust a marketing blurb or even a single source of info on a piece of equipment that my life is sitting on.
Try stuff but know the risk and the situation; realize you will absolutely hit unknowns so you better have some plan B's. As in, wait for screaming hot summer, go up the canyon on you slicks, round a corner and find a puddle, or some car oil... what you got for that?
Click to expand...

VB great reply, riders who are planning slicks for the road miss the big picture re sports riding which is called staying alive, this year, next year and the year after etc and keeping all your bits intact! So the short answer to the OP's question is that is very hard to get them working in a street environment.. In GP racing even a cool wind springing up in the afternoon on one part of the track for the race causes crashes. The teams number one goal is to set the bikes up to get tires working and generate grip. We dont ride at GP level but the principle is the same, higher performance means narrower windows.
smithbuddy760 said:
Was looking into trying these tires (both front and rear)
https://www.motodracing.com/pirelli-diablo-superbike-sc3-rear-200-65
I was under the impression the stock SP V3 tires have the same SC3 compound on the sides as these. I understand that the 200/65 only comes in a slick (SC3 slick which doesn't require tire warmers) Hypothetically what is keeping someone form running these on the street if you are only doing fast canyon runs in dry conditions. I understand that tread is required for DOT legal reasons, but aside from that aspect, what performance downsides / benefits would someone be looking at if they decided to try these for those high speed canyon runs. I appreciate the insight.
Click to expand...
Go to a track, otherwise SP's will give you all the grip and fun you need.
 
baggerman said:
Watching that makes me wonder what the GP's and WSBK are going to do about the ducati's. Looks like when the 2 strokes showed up. Don't bother to draft just motor by. More chicanes? Add weight? I think why ducati has had recent GP success, besides the 30 extra hp (and everyone said that desmo stuff had no advantage) is the engineering that's going into the carbon fiber fork tubes. Stiff during braking, then layered flexure down the length of the tube on the sides. Probably as a function of fork extension. Wonder how long until we start to see commercial use.
Click to expand...

on a street bike? never
 
baggerman said:
I think why ducati has had recent GP success, besides the 30 extra hp (and everyone said that desmo stuff had no advantage) is the engineering that's going into the carbon fiber fork tubes. Stiff during braking, then layered flexure down the length of the tube on the sides. Probably as a function of fork extension. Wonder how long until we start to see commercial use.
Click to expand...

These forks are supplied by Ohlins not manufactured by Ducati. They may have been advantageous in 2017 but they’re now de rigeur in the paddock nowadays.

PS You can already get CF forks but again the ROI is basically nill.

https://ceracarbon-racing.com/
 
Paul G said:
VB great reply, riders who are planning slicks for the road miss the big picture re sports riding which is called staying alive, this year, next year and the year after etc and keeping all your bits intact! So the short answer to the OP's question is that is very hard to get them working in a street environment.. In GP racing even a cool wind springing up in the afternoon on one part of the track for the race causes crashes. The teams number one goal is to set the bikes up to get tires working and generate grip. We dont ride at GP level but the principle is the same, higher performance means narrower windows.

Go to a track, otherwise SP's will give you all the grip and fun you need.
Click to expand...

The reason we were even considering them is we believed they were the same compound as the stock tires and if they were we figured there wouldn’t be any downside and they would work. Ideally we don’t want to run slicks, but the 200/65 only comes in a slick variant. We have run the sc3 dot on the street without issue and we posed the question to determine if the sc3 is the same thing without the tread and if it were we don’t see why it wouldn’t work. Based on the info here it does seem they appear to be different. To clarify we absolutely understand and had no intention of running a standard slick that requires warmers on the street, we weren’t sure if these sc3 slicks were something different. Im not sure why there’s a lot of drama aroudn this as I feel like that line of logic makes sense
 
As I said you already know the answer so why even post? Go and buy a set then report back with your video, Im sure we could all learn something.
 
baggerman said:
Personally I love the coffeeshop posers. My last 3 ducati's were purchased used from LA posers. They buy all the trick accessories, like full exhaust systems and then never really ride the bikes. Just got to wait till they get bored (or need the cash). Perfect guys to buy from. Motors are gently broken in (good for the valvetrain) and the tires are always pristine.
Click to expand...
holy hell this 100%
my 1299 came with full exhaust, about 4K in carbon fiber, and only 4k miles in 6yrs....gotta love it...scooped it up for 16K USD
 
smithbuddy760 said:
The reason we were even considering them is we believed they were the same compound as the stock tires and if they were we figured there wouldn’t be any downside and they would work. Ideally we don’t want to run slicks, but the 200/65 only comes in a slick variant. We have run the sc3 dot on the street without issue and we posed the question to determine if the sc3 is the same thing without the tread and if it were we don’t see why it wouldn’t work. Based on the info here it does seem they appear to be different. To clarify we absolutely understand and had no intention of running a standard slick that requires warmers on the street, we weren’t sure if these sc3 slicks were something different. Im not sure why there’s a lot of drama aroudn this as I feel like that line of logic makes sense
Click to expand...

The reason for drama is because it's the internet and we ride motorcycles, so we have a conflicting sense of superiority mixed with the need to be useful and give back.
The third reason is we feel it's significantly dangerous enough to throw a fit about.
Sorry we should have just said,

Go to school, use the right tool.
Use the wrong tool, look like a fool.

I'm just kidding.
Why you want to run the 200/65? So wide.
 
Vbreeze said:
The reason for drama is because it's the internet and we ride motorcycles, so we have a conflicting sense of superiority mixed with the need to be useful and give back.
The third reason is we feel it's significantly dangerous enough to throw a fit about.
Sorry we should have just said,

Go to school, use the right tool.
Use the wrong tool, look like a fool.

I'm just kidding.
Why you want to run the 200/65? So wide.
Click to expand...

Big fans of wsbk and they’re using the tire so figured if the performance is better and the tire works why not give it a try. Like using your favorite athletes tennis racquet. Figured we’d give it a try if it was doable and safe.
 
smithbuddy760 said:
Big fans of wsbk and they’re using the tire so figured if the performance is better and the tire works why not give it a try. Like using your favorite athletes tennis racquet. Figured we’d give it a try if it was doable and safe.
Click to expand...

I hear you, but re-read the thread. There is a lot of helpful considered info here from people with a lot of experience riding fast on Panis. Some of us are young, some race,some are reckless and some of us are old, but there are no old reckless riders here because they are all dead.
 
Paul G said:
I hear you, but re-read the thread. There is a lot of helpful considered info here from people with a lot of experience riding fast on Panis. Some of us are young, some race,some are reckless and some of us are old, but there are no old reckless riders here because they are all dead.
Click to expand...

Yes the reason for the extended discussion is that we weren’t sure if it was understood that these slicks were supposedly using the same sc3 compound. We don’t want to do anything that would be unsafe and the goal was to figure out if this sc3 slick is just the sc3 Dot tire (which we’ve used with success in the canyons) without tread.
 
I'll try again :) The short answer is dont use slicks on the street for any reason whatsoever regardless of compound unless you are a munter. Pirelli Supercorsa SP's will get you within say 10-15 seconds of the outright lap record for the class if you are any good;
Sylvain Guintoli at Donnington Park on a bone stock GSXR 1000 with street tires 1:37.5 Jonathon Rea on a WSBK Kawasaki with slicks blah blah etc....1:26.23

Dont take my word for it:


and heres rea losing it on slicks

 
smithbuddy760 said:
Big fans of wsbk and they’re using the tire so figured if the performance is better and the tire works why not give it a try. Like using your favorite athletes tennis racquet. Figured we’d give it a try if it was doable and safe.
Click to expand...

Ya I get that. That's cool. It makes sense for so many things, but not everything. For real, I'm not trying to give you a hard time. So I was asking why the super wide tire because that huge tire is actually slower and harder to turn. I don't know why anyone wants to run the 200/65. Anyone try them? There is so much in motorcycling that is opposite instinct or obvious logic and this is an example.
The wider the tire, the harder it is to get to turn. Big bikes use the wide tires for stability and tire wear, compromising loosing speed into and out of corners. The bigger the tire, the more rolling weight and the more un-sprung weight you add, which means the more gyroscopic force you add. That all means it makes it harder to change directions, accelerate and decelerate.
This is why the 600cc class racers at Mugello are capable of sub 2:min laps with HALF the horse power of the SBK class, with a top speed of only 220 - 240kph. The SBK are only a couple seconds faster and they're going past 310kph. The small bikes go through the chicanes like they weren't there. The difference is huge.
It takes a while to get to know people on this board and there's a lot of dick measuring, but there is also mind blowing amounts of knowledge we pass around. I get blown away weekly. I hope you can have a little patience with us. Ride safe guys.
 
Watching Jonathan Rea catch highsides is exactly why everyone should ride dirt bikes first. In the dirt you're constantly losing one end or the other. Snapping the bike upright and letting it run off when you need to becomes a muscle memory thing. Wet grass or mud on slicks don't slow down.
 
As someone who has a stack of worn out 200/65 SC1s and SC3s from last year, here are my thoughts.

The 200/65 slick is much taller(672mm diameter, 10mm taller) and only slightly wider(202mm, 2mm wider) than the 200/60 slick.
The 200/60 Supercorsa is much closer in size and profile to the 200/65 slick since it is 670mm diameter and 200mm wide.

For me the 200/65 slick lasts the longest and has the best drive grip, the 200/60 is the lightest and has the most stability/slowest turn in since it has the roundest profile, and the 200/60 Supercorsa turns in the fastest with the most triangular profile. I happen to like the 125/70 and 200/65 combo the best.

Compound wise, the SC1s:
  • Have a narrow temp range
  • Require warmers
  • Have piles of grip for a few sessions, then drop off to slightly better than SC3 grip
  • Don't last long at all on a V4.

The SC3s:
  • Work over a really wide temp range.
  • Do not require warmers but are happier with them.
  • Last a long time for Pirellis, but they don't last as long as Dunlop slicks
  • Don't have sprint race grip at the start but also don't drop off as dramatically

I've run the SC3 superbike slicks without warmers occasionally, and while they require a good warmup lap, they're not much slower to warm up than Dunlop Q4s or other track focused DOTs. I would not run the SC3 slicks on the street as the Supercorsa profile is close enough.
 

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