‘23 V4S stock forged wheels vs BST wheels

SuperDomestique · Dec 22, 2023

baggerman said:
I did not know this. Scratches would normally
The problem with carbon wheels it that they dont hold heat like metal so you have to work to keep heat in the tirescrack propagate but not from anywhere the tire guys would have caused a scratch. I've been leary about carbon stuff since a guy broke a carbon fiber swingarm in front of me in the g-out that was (is?) on the backside of Buttonwillow. That cold tire thing never crossed my mind. Thanks.

PaulG said:
The problem with carbon wheels it that they dont hold heat like metal so you have to work to keep heat in the tires

I’d argue the opposite. Just look at the heat conductivity of aluminum vs carbon fiber. Aluminum is 237 W m−1 K−1. Carbon fiber composite is 7. A carbon wheel will retain more heat. For tire stability, you’d want a wheel that can shed heat faster so it doesn’t build up and stay in the sweet spot.

panibadboy · Dec 22, 2023

Paul G said:
btw BMW oem Thyssenkrupp's had spoke to rim fractures, but think thats fixed now.

I saw a guy who was taken to a hospital at Portimao because TK CF rear (S1000rr M version) exploded on track. He was very lucky.

Think it was in 2021

panibadboy · Dec 22, 2023

I say it again, CF wheels are a gimmick.

99% won't tell the difference between CF and forged wheels. And if they keep preaching about rotational mass, it's just something they've read on internet.

DV4 · Dec 22, 2023

panibadboy said:
I say it again, CF wheels are a gimmick.

99% won't tell the difference between CF and forged wheels. And if they keep preaching about rotational mass, it's just something they've read on internet.

they do make a difference but its like a mid pack guy having a 220hp bike but running out and buying a 230hp cause he thinks its better- we all know he aint going to go any faster!

Steven31371 · Dec 22, 2023

panibadboy said:
I say it again, CF wheels are a gimmick.

99% won't tell the difference between CF and forged wheels. And if they keep preaching about rotational mass, it's just something they've read on internet.

Is that your opinion or have you risen them in back to back sessions on track?

Because I have and you are wrong my friend, there is a noticeable difference, though not huge. But, that difference compounds when you do several things that reduce rotational mass.

DV4 · Dec 22, 2023

SuperDomestique said:
I’d argue the opposite. Just look at the heat conductivity of aluminum vs carbon fiber. Aluminum is 237 W m−1 K−1. Carbon fiber composite is 7. A carbon wheel will retain more heat. For tire stability, you’d want a wheel that can shed heat faster so it doesn’t build up and stay in the sweet spot.

Id expect no less than a good argument but you are wrong about the heat. What you want is stability in a tire and the way to do that in increase the storage mass. Tires change temp pretty rapidly but the wheels mass slows it down. In theory carbon has high thermal conductivity but its highly dependent on the specific fibre and construction method but the resin OTOH is heat sensitive so heat build up is undesirable, regardless most carbon fibre layups are poor heat conductors.

baggerman · Dec 22, 2023

Paul G said:
Id expect no less than a good argument but you are wrong about the heat. What you want is stability in a tire and the way to do that in increase the storage mass. Tires change temp pretty rapidly but the wheels mass slows it down. In theory carbon has high thermal conductivity but its highly dependent on the specific fibre and construction method but the resin OTOH is heat sensitive so heat build up is undesirable, regardless most carbon fibre layups are poor heat conductors.

The only reasonable thing to do is for Spooky to send me that set in his office for evaluation. I have both an IR thermometer gun and a pyrometer around here somewhere.

BullandBear1 · Dec 22, 2023

I'll be using rotobox with some motod tire warmers this upcoming season for track days so I can report back if anyone is interested.

JohnSmith · Dec 22, 2023

Carbon does not absorb and dissipate heat like alum, which is very important when riding at the track. Heading out on track with a tire that is hot doesn't mean you are properly setup esp during the beginning of the season or end of the season when outside temps are not ideal. If you look at the best high end tire warmers (capital full zone Vision Pro // Therm tech eco Tri zone) they wrap the wheel to achieve this and when you remove them to go ride the wheel itself is HOT to the touch. When I go out I don't touch the tire I touch the wheel to see where I am at.

Here is my blunt assessment of carbon wheels or sicoms - they are not used to race so there is no reason to use them. I strive to have a setup that is basically a step up for SSTK, basically a mortal "Factory" bike. I look at what pro racers use a nerd out at how they're different from oem bikes and what can be done to make an oem bike better.

But to get back to the opps thread and what we have all latched onto there - we are talking about a guy riding on the street so..... you want a fancy looking bike sure cool get them. If you decide to want to learn how to ride fast go ride at the track

DV4 · Dec 22, 2023

Going from base cast wheels to forged is the most bang for the buck you can get. I am not anti carbon, Id get a set for street riding if they were are real bargain but if I'm honest it wouldnt be for performance, it would be for the bling

The general rule is that heat is the enemy of carbon composites which softens the resin or causes it to break down, although short of a fire its not a problem on a bike wheel. Carbon is an amazing material, fyi its only strong in tension so a wheel supports the weight of the bike by "hanging" from the rim via the top spoke which is trying to flatten the it, and in turn is prevented from distorting sideways by the other spokes. If you think about the those load paths you will understand why scratches at the rim are pretty much a non event.

SuperDomestique · Dec 22, 2023

Paul G said:
Id expect no less than a good argument but you are wrong about the heat. What you want is stability in a tire and the way to do that in increase the storage mass. Tires change temp pretty rapidly but the wheels mass slows it down. In theory carbon has high thermal conductivity but its highly dependent on the specific fibre and construction method but the resin OTOH is heat sensitive so heat build up is undesirable, regardless most carbon fibre layups are poor heat conductors.

I think what we can agree on is that carbon composites have weird thermal characteristics that make it impractical for normal use.

Also the stress strain curves really show that with composites once you exceed the yield strength, it’s catastrophic whereas with aluminum it’ll bend for a bit. Alu give more time and indication of failure. Carbon is super strong until it isn’t. It’s also easier to .... up the manufacturing of a composite than metal so there’s that. There’s a lot more complexity to making a good composite.

Steven31371 · Dec 22, 2023

KarlKani said:
Carbon does not absorb and dissipate heat like alum, which is very important when riding at the track. Heading out on track with a tire that is hot doesn't mean you are properly setup esp during the beginning of the season or end of the season when outside temps are not ideal. If you look at the best high end tire warmers (capital full zone Vision Pro // Therm tech eco Tri zone) they wrap the wheel to achieve this and when you remove them to go ride the wheel itself is HOT to the touch. When I go out I don't touch the tire I touch the wheel to see where I am at.

Here is my blunt assessment of carbon wheels or sicoms - they are not used to race so there is no reason to use them. I strive to have a setup that is basically a step up for SSTK, basically a mortal "Factory" bike. I look at what pro racers use a nerd out at how they're different from oem bikes and what can be done to make an oem bike better.

But to get back to the opps thread and what we have all latched onto there - we are talking about a guy riding on the street so..... you want a fancy looking bike sure cool get them. If you decide to want to learn how to ride fast go ride at the track

That’s a good argument…the argument that CF wheels aren’t as strong or durable as forged wheels is an outdated argument.

However, the retaining heat thing is. You talked me int getting a set of OZ’s lol

Because I have had issues on cool days at the track maintaining temps right, although, in fairness, the guy next to me also on a Ducati WITH forged wheels has the exact same issues.

I use Capit blankets on cool days to cover the whole wheel/tire warmer combo

DV4 · Dec 22, 2023

Steven, everything is on a spectrum, to get track specific tires into an operating range requires a certain pace i.e. at one end Supercorsa SP's have a wide operating range that most people can utilize but not race level grip as opposed to MotoGP slicks at the other end of the spectrum are ultra sticky but the range is so narrow that only GP riders can keep them in the zone, even then a cool wind on a long straight makes the next corner entry a very sketchy affair.

Carbon wheels narrow the zone somewhat, i.e you have to keep the pace on to keep the heat in the tires but probably the most relevant is waiting in pit lane where the tires cool off pretty quickly. I wouldnt be in a rush to change them, just be aware of it on the outlap and dont cruise on the racing line

JohnSmith · Dec 22, 2023

Steven31371 said:
That’s a good argument…the argument that CF wheels aren’t as strong or durable as forged wheels is an outdated argument.

However, the retaining heat thing is. You talked me int getting a set of OZ’s lol

Because I have had issues on cool days at the track maintaining temps right, although, in fairness, the guy next to me also on a Ducati WITH forged wheels has the exact same issues.

I use Capit blankets on cool days to cover the whole wheel/tire warmer combo

Hot tip - buy OZ wheels but get 2 rears. Then you will always have a rear tire mounted up ready to throw on. Also if you don't have the full zone pro capits get those also

SuperDomestique · Dec 22, 2023

Paul G said:
Steven, everything is on a spectrum, to get track specific tires into an operating range requires a certain pace i.e. at one end Supercorsa SP's have a wide operating range that most people can utilize but not race level grip as opposed to MotoGP slicks at the other end of the spectrum are ultra sticky but the range is so narrow that only GP riders can keep them in the zone, even then a cool wind on a long straight makes the next corner entry a very sketchy affair.

Carbon wheels narrow the zone somewhat, i.e you have to keep the pace on to keep the heat in the tires but probably the most relevant is waiting in pit lane where the tires cool off pretty quickly. I wouldnt be in a rush to change them, just be aware of it on the outlap and dont cruise on the racing line

Not sure why you’d want to run anything more race-y than an SC3 for trackday riding… SC1/2 are maybe stickier but they don’t last as long and have narrower temps.

Steven31371 · Dec 23, 2023

KarlKani said:
Carbon does not absorb and dissipate heat like alum, which is very important when riding at the track. Heading out on track with a tire that is hot doesn't mean you are properly setup esp during the beginning of the season or end of the season when outside temps are not ideal. If you look at the best high end tire warmers (capital full zone Vision Pro // Therm tech eco Tri zone) they wrap the wheel to achieve this and when you remove them to go ride the wheel itself is HOT to the touch. When I go out I don't touch the tire I touch the wheel to see where I am at.

Here is my blunt assessment of carbon wheels or sicoms - they are not used to race so there is no reason to use them. I strive to have a setup that is basically a step up for SSTK, basically a mortal "Factory" bike. I look at what pro racers use a nerd out at how they're different from oem bikes and what can be done to make an oem bike better.

But to get back to the opps thread and what we have all latched onto there - we are talking about a guy riding on the street so..... you want a fancy looking bike sure cool get them. If you decide to want to learn how to ride fast go ride at the track

Yeah but composite is SOOO much stronger in that graph that in my book it kinda makes the case for composite wheels…because while there is an argument that metal bends instead of breaks so what?…you are gunna run a repaired set of bent rims on your track bike?…I highly doubt it, even if they could be repaired at a cost that makes it worth doing instead of buying a new set of wheels.

Let’s call a catastrophic event a Catastrophe and say that if you severely bend a metal wheel it’s catastrophic…then the question becomes: at what level of force do composite wheels have a catastrophic failure versus forged? Seems like a pretty clear argument for CF wheels that graph.

panibadboy · Dec 23, 2023

KarlKani said:
Carbon does not absorb and dissipate heat like alum, which is very important when riding at the track. Heading out on track with a tire that is hot doesn't mean you are properly setup esp during the beginning of the season or end of the season when outside temps are not ideal. If you look at the best high end tire warmers (capital full zone Vision Pro // Therm tech eco Tri zone) they wrap the wheel to achieve this and when you remove them to go ride the wheel itself is HOT to the touch. When I go out I don't touch the tire I touch the wheel to see where I am at.

Here is my blunt assessment of carbon wheels or sicoms - they are not used to race so there is no reason to use them. I strive to have a setup that is basically a step up for SSTK, basically a mortal "Factory" bike. I look at what pro racers use a nerd out at how they're different from oem bikes and what can be done to make an oem bike better.

But to get back to the opps thread and what we have all latched onto there - we are talking about a guy riding on the street so..... you want a fancy looking bike sure cool get them. If you decide to want to learn how to ride fast go ride at the track

Finally someone with a common sense talking

panibadboy · Dec 23, 2023

SBK-SP said:
Like I said, if you’re not a ham-fisted goon you WILL feel the difference. If the shoe fits, wear it.

… and you’re wrong again. Have YOU ever tried carbon wheels? I would say no.
They certainly have some negatives in a racing/only situation with tire warmers, etc, so they’re definitely not the best wheel for racing applications. They have some real limitations with heat as they are made with an epoxy resin. Carbon wheels are not all equal either. I prefer the BST for their longevity in building them, reputation, and esthetics. My oldest set are over 10 years with about 8400 street miles.

Note that carbon fiber is very strong when made correctly, but can and will fail catastrophically when not. See the Titan submersible story when the idiot didn’t heed the specific warnings.

I did and my fastest times are not on them. But I dropped 4k on delaminated rims.

You want more agility in turns, put V02 front instead of pirelli.

You want to reduce rotating mass ? Buy AFAM sprockets and bin the starter

panibadboy · Dec 23, 2023

SuperDomestique said:
Not sure why you’d want to run anything more race-y than an SC3 for trackday riding… SC1/2 are maybe stickier but they don’t last as long and have narrower temps.

Sorry mate, this is dumbest advice ever, also you didn't say front or rear.

If it's hot outside running rear SC3 at .... pace will destroy it quicker than SC1.

Fine to use SC3 on a front, but rear requires more thought, especially if you use Pirellis.

Bridgestones is another story, soft rear for anything below 20C, hard rear above. (forget 3lc for now).

panibadboy · Dec 23, 2023

panibadboy said:
I did and my fastest times are not on them. But I dropped 4k on delaminated rims.

You want more agility in turns, put V02 front instead of pirelli.

You want to reduce rotating mass ? Buy AFAM sprockets and bin the starter

Meant CNC, pardon me

‘23 V4S stock forged wheels vs BST wheels

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