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Help Support Ducati Forum:
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lol...yes you should have
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Stw...did you forget our discussion already
No sir..which is why I said some
You get a free pass...- Joined
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I am not going to argue whether the R exhaust caused those failures or not. But your statement in its theoretical sense isn't true. You can have a really badly built exhaust which can cause engine failure. I mean build one that only allows 5 percent airflow creating massive back pressure and it could certainly be the primary contributor to engine failure. Change the exhaust that originally requires lambda sensors to pne that doesnt without without disabling the lambda sensors in the ecu and it could wreak havoc as well. Design an exhaust that the lambda sensors don't read proper af ratios and the engine dumps tons of fuel or runs it crazy lean and it will cause engine failure as well.
So - care to revisit that 100 percent statement ??
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Picked up on that and def understood but seeing that our engineer didn't I had to elaborate a bit more detail
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You guys love picking through the bones to find something wrong with a thread .
The guy said that from the beginning that's the way I read it but I do own a R so I guess it makes me a little smarter than you other guys
Ozzies are smarter. Ha, ha. Greetings from another R owner. I think what Kope wanted to say is the fact beware of buying the Pro pipe if you are a non R owner. And not sure why a pipe could blow motors. The longer manifolds tend to suck more. Is that what we all want.
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Dear me,
Let me thank you people who seem to get the info and thoughts i was trying to get across. And for spelling it out to those who apparantly missed it. I was starting to think my english must be utterly incomprehensible.. But apparantly only to some.
Let me say clearly i am no engineer and know little off engines and mechanics in general. What i am very good at is surrounding me with people who do know every little detail of what needs to be known to make a project succeed.
This for me is a project that is done as i do my professional projects. That means thoroughly and to te highest standards. Riding tracks brings the extra dimension of safety. My own first but also that of the peope who share my passion with me while riding the same laps. This brings responsibility to my family and fellow riders to do a proper job in having te bike prepared, tuned and set up. Seeing engines blow to me therefore is ver worrying. The feedback from ducati and knowledgable people does nothing to put these worries to rest.
I leave gatti and stw s comments as to my and others personal traits as people having opted for an R to themselves. It must be a pritty reassuring feeling to be able to reduce everything in life to 100% or zero . Most of us need to contemplate the possibility of nuance.
This said you are indeed all entitled to know what credibility the sources i get my info from have. Il be back to shed some light on te guys i rely on to gey this project done and run to semi professional standards shortly. As i ve said ofteb before, without them i would not have dared to do this , let alone ride it to the levels i seem to be able to reach.
As to gatti the man, one question : if an engine can withstand 200 bhp before it blows and an exhaust system takes it to 203 and then the engine does blow , what to your enlightened engineering brain caused the engine to blow ? Please, Do shed some light in this darkness surrounding me ..
Kind regards
Kope
Let me thank you people who seem to get the info and thoughts i was trying to get across. And for spelling it out to those who apparantly missed it. I was starting to think my english must be utterly incomprehensible.. But apparantly only to some.
Let me say clearly i am no engineer and know little off engines and mechanics in general. What i am very good at is surrounding me with people who do know every little detail of what needs to be known to make a project succeed.
This for me is a project that is done as i do my professional projects. That means thoroughly and to te highest standards. Riding tracks brings the extra dimension of safety. My own first but also that of the peope who share my passion with me while riding the same laps. This brings responsibility to my family and fellow riders to do a proper job in having te bike prepared, tuned and set up. Seeing engines blow to me therefore is ver worrying. The feedback from ducati and knowledgable people does nothing to put these worries to rest.
I leave gatti and stw s comments as to my and others personal traits as people having opted for an R to themselves. It must be a pritty reassuring feeling to be able to reduce everything in life to 100% or zero . Most of us need to contemplate the possibility of nuance.
This said you are indeed all entitled to know what credibility the sources i get my info from have. Il be back to shed some light on te guys i rely on to gey this project done and run to semi professional standards shortly. As i ve said ofteb before, without them i would not have dared to do this , let alone ride it to the levels i seem to be able to reach.
As to gatti the man, one question : if an engine can withstand 200 bhp before it blows and an exhaust system takes it to 203 and then the engine does blow , what to your enlightened engineering brain caused the engine to blow ? Please, Do shed some light in this darkness surrounding me ..
Kind regards
Kope
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Started qualifying your statements eh. ... From not possible at all to not possible with a tuned pipe ....
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You come on here to share info. with fellow owners/riders out of your own time and with very little expectation of anything in return.
Then you come back to see all of the complete ........ from people who somehow or for some reason always have to make it personal and largely in a negative tone.
Yeah its a forum, wild west, yada yada yada but ultimately this deters people like kope and many others from wanting to return as frequently (or at all) and likely reduces usable contributions from kope and anyone else who may want to sit down, step away from their life for a few minutes of reading or take the extra few minutes it takes to share thoughts, experiences, whatever.
Who the .... wants to deal with the hassle and aggravation of trying to share when the potential for this ........ blowback may arise from a post from a guy just trying to share?
You come on here to share info. with fellow owners/riders out of your own time and with very little expectation of anything in return.
Then you come back to see all of the complete ........ from people who somehow or for some reason always have to make it personal and largely in a negative tone.
Yeah its a forum, wild west, yada yada yada but ultimately this deters people like kope and many others from wanting to return as frequently (or at all) and likely reduces usable contributions from kope and anyone else who may want to sit down, step away from their life for a few minutes of reading or take the extra few minutes it takes to share thoughts, experiences, whatever.
Who the .... wants to deal with the hassle and aggravation of trying to share when the potential for this ........ blowback may arise from a post from a guy just trying to share?
+1
This is the most contentious forum I have ever been on in over 20 years of riding and being consumed with bikes. Pretty sad but the stereotypes of Ducati owners (Pani is my first Duc) seem to be proven true to a degree; the ....... wanna-be, never-was, armchair commandos are indeed present here. Too bad we don't have a forum meet/trackday/convention like other forums. It's often funny when you actually meet the trolls in person, better yet when the attitude can be turned around by actual face-to-face contact.
Thanks to all who do contribute meaningful information for the collective knowledge base. It is indeed appreciated, certainly more than the bellicose responses would indicate!
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I have not weighed in on this due to the immaturity levels but I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents....
First of all, horsepower does not blow engine. Cylinder pressures can blow engines. Heat can blow engines. Improper/insufficient lubrication can blow engines.
Horsepower is nothing more than a manmade measurement of torque spread out over time. It is no more concrete than time itself. People place way too much importance on the rotation of the earth around the sun as a cause of things, like for instance growing older. We do not grow older, we simply grow and wear out. It has nothing to do with the movement of the earth around the sun, we just decided we would measure things based on it, like an inch or a millimeter. Arbitrary when seen independent of relationship to subjects.
Horsepower is the same. It means nothing. What matters is how much air, cfm, is capable of being moved through a cylinder and how big of an explosion you can make with it while it is in there. An exhaust system only allows a (hopefully) more rapid/efficient evacuation of the combusted byproduct. In itself, this will not cause an engine to fail. In removing the byproduct more rapidly, as long as the rest of the system is up to it, another air charge can more rapidly enter the combustion process.
As long as the fueling is correct for the amount of air passing through, no danger is present.
Which brings us to cylinder pressures. Higher pressure means more stress, higher pressure means more heat. Too little fuel will also cause heat. Heat leads to the combustible mixture igniting before the ideal time, for instance before the piston gets to the top of the stroke in the cylinder. The explosion works against the motion of the piston and excess forces break parts.
With a naturally aspirated engine, outside of plain defective parts, the two killers are an improper tune (wrong amount of fuel causing heat, preignition) or too many RPMs for the parts installed. An exhaust system in and of itself will do nothing. When tuned properly the engine will be fine.
I believe I read earlier in all the muck that all of the engines were running a tune or a add on fueling device and may or may not have had the engine speed limiter altered....That would be the first place I look. Once you lean out the mixture and remove safety limiters you begin to ask for trouble at the limits....
An exhaust pipe only assists in the removal of exhaust. You can tune the engine to make the same exact power as before the pipe install. It's ALL in the tune.
Oh yeah, then there is spark timing......screw it up and hello preignition.....heat....cylinder pressure.....boom. That's a whole other topic.
And it sounds to me like no one here knows ANYthing about the tune in the bikes. Can someone post up the fuel curves? The timing maps? ANYthing??? No?
Correlation is not causation, my fellow ducati fans.
First of all, horsepower does not blow engine. Cylinder pressures can blow engines. Heat can blow engines. Improper/insufficient lubrication can blow engines.
Horsepower is nothing more than a manmade measurement of torque spread out over time. It is no more concrete than time itself. People place way too much importance on the rotation of the earth around the sun as a cause of things, like for instance growing older. We do not grow older, we simply grow and wear out. It has nothing to do with the movement of the earth around the sun, we just decided we would measure things based on it, like an inch or a millimeter. Arbitrary when seen independent of relationship to subjects.
Horsepower is the same. It means nothing. What matters is how much air, cfm, is capable of being moved through a cylinder and how big of an explosion you can make with it while it is in there. An exhaust system only allows a (hopefully) more rapid/efficient evacuation of the combusted byproduct. In itself, this will not cause an engine to fail. In removing the byproduct more rapidly, as long as the rest of the system is up to it, another air charge can more rapidly enter the combustion process.
As long as the fueling is correct for the amount of air passing through, no danger is present.
Which brings us to cylinder pressures. Higher pressure means more stress, higher pressure means more heat. Too little fuel will also cause heat. Heat leads to the combustible mixture igniting before the ideal time, for instance before the piston gets to the top of the stroke in the cylinder. The explosion works against the motion of the piston and excess forces break parts.
With a naturally aspirated engine, outside of plain defective parts, the two killers are an improper tune (wrong amount of fuel causing heat, preignition) or too many RPMs for the parts installed. An exhaust system in and of itself will do nothing. When tuned properly the engine will be fine.
I believe I read earlier in all the muck that all of the engines were running a tune or a add on fueling device and may or may not have had the engine speed limiter altered....That would be the first place I look. Once you lean out the mixture and remove safety limiters you begin to ask for trouble at the limits....
An exhaust pipe only assists in the removal of exhaust. You can tune the engine to make the same exact power as before the pipe install. It's ALL in the tune.
Oh yeah, then there is spark timing......screw it up and hello preignition.....heat....cylinder pressure.....boom. That's a whole other topic.
And it sounds to me like no one here knows ANYthing about the tune in the bikes. Can someone post up the fuel curves? The timing maps? ANYthing??? No?
Correlation is not causation, my fellow ducati fans.
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- May 31, 2012
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i dont care what anybody says the full system is not worth the money. termi slips upmap call it a day. until termi comes with a Ti pipe it will never be worth it. you are paying for ANOTHER stainless steel header just 20mm wider doesnt really do anything. the reason for a full system is mostly weight savings. your not really saving anything getting the same pipe. come on i know you want to think its special (full system) but its not. i have the slips because of the slight sound difference, weight savings (ti cans vs stock which is very heavy), and ease of new maps from ducati. if you want to waste the cash on a full system go ahead but dont kid yourself that you will see any difference in your riding abilities.
As for the R it comes with it so yes i would have it installed why wouldnt i.
As for the R it comes with it so yes i would have it installed why wouldnt i.
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Higgs,
You're 2 cents is more than welcome. I would say finally and I wish you had it thrown in sooner.
Please bear with me as I try to figure out if I understood you correctly.
Even if the exhaust system is just the outlet for combustion residue, there is a clear connection between a certain system and changed - read increased - performance that is showing when applying the formula. Leading to a different number of units called "HP", am I correct?
And that, as Ducati now has already developed 5 different combo's or systems for the Pani ( Stock street, Stock street + slip ons, Evo line, Pro line, and the SBK line) the choice of such an exhaust system seems to be crucial to this performance and also to the way this performance is delivered ( bottom versus top power).
But for each specific system to work to its fullest, it needs a different tuning, being in broad lines, the combination of amount of fuel, air and combustion timing. Items that will add to this tune are: fuel settings ( through DP ECU or aftermarket systems), airfilter and actual timing of the cams. Am I still correct?
So when we refer to a certain type of exhaust system, in fact what we do is refer to a specific combo of tuning "packages" that can be applied in total, partially or combined. And even if we talk about the pipe, in fact, what we are doing is referring to the mapping that is activated by the installation of the pipe and the key that comes with it. Of which the exhaust itself is just the outlet.
From what we can measure from dyno's the range of this differences ( top power and delivery ) can vary quit substantially. And subsequently it is to be expected that these combo's, and how they are put to work together, have an important effect on the heat and pressure on the internal parts of the engine, mainly the pistons and conrods.
If I did understand you correctly, then some things come to mind.
Another given, I guess , is that engine capacity is the major determinating factor as to maximum power output potential ("no substitute for cubic inches")
Question : Does this imply that there is a definite limit to a certain engine capacity? And that the higher the power output gets as standard, the more impact extra tuning will have on longevity and reliability.
Just noting that the 1198 was announced at 170 hp at 9.750 revs back in 2009 ( ref Bikez) and that the Pani base/S/TC was announced at 195 hp at 10.750 revs carrying just 1 cc more , can we conclude that, while going from testastretta to superquadra and gaining 15% more power at the cost of revving 10% more, we have indeed moved substantially closer to what an 1200cc twin engine can maximally deliver? This all while still having to adhere to standards of daily use and stringent environmental regulations. That therefore, while maintaining the same stock parts ( pe : 1198 conrod quality = 1199 base conrod quality) margin for error while changing one aspect of tuning possibilities is reduced significantly. And that even the type of use - street use or intense tracking use - will have a bigger impact on longevity or possible failing of those "high strung" engines. As everything actually hoovers much closer "to the edge"
If there is such a thing as "˜ closer to the edge', can an indication of the fact that, in it's base form, the Quadra actually is pretty close to that limit, be seen in the fact that whereas the 1198R announced another 10 bhp ( 180 at 9750 ) extra over the 1198, the 1199R actually is announced at exactly the same power. While the R engine only did get lighter and stronger parts to handle the higher pressures and heat coming from more powerful tuning combo's ( pe : Pro pipe and mapping ) and intent of intenser use. That tuning packages linked to different exhaust systems need the changing of some very specific internals: the conrods and friction reducing materials ( some ceramic coatings here and there). And a lighter flywheel. All steps taken to strengthen the engine as a whole and reduce friction and stress. And in fact the only steps taken.
Let's be clear about the fact that those tuning combo's will, when done well, all likely not cause an engine to fail with average intensity use. Question is whether, even when applied correctly, there is the possibility that some parts are just not strong enough to withstand many miles off very intense use in connection with track riding and or racing. I don't think I ever suggested that moderate use would kill the engine and that therefore the base engine would not be good. I have allways referred to this "˜close to racing' - tracking + track only bikes.
What worries me is that there are more than enough indications to be able to come to the conclusion that there very likely are. If it kwacks like a duck, "¦ .
these indications are based on following facts.
1. I know personally of 2 engines that did blow. KNOW as in "˜ I held the broken parts'. I know as off today that both broke the conrod of the front cylinder.
a. One of these engines I know for sure had : MWR filter, Rapidbike module, Full mapping, EVO line, SSTK timing done to it. As in indication of evolution : it started at 165 RWHP but now had 193 bhp on the rear wheel ( measured DIN mode). At least 3 more panigales were done that way on this bench and they all raised from 192 up to 201 bhp in Din mode. Indicating that they all were within eachothers range and close to the same ceiling. As for all bikes : Much of the dip had been smoothened out. It had 3000 km on the clock , 2000km track time on fast to very fast tracks (Spa - Mugello,"¦ ). This bike HAD NOT HAD THE REV LIMITER RAISED. There is a pic attached of the piston that came out of that engine.
b. The other Pani, also owned by an intense tracker, was carrying the Pro Pipe. After 10 minutes the engine went.
2. In the warranty debate, Ducati was eventually courteous but did annul the warranty stating that Pani development is a Ducati only thing. Any engine management system put on the bike does make the warranty void.
3. The dealer, who did the timing and maintenance, clearly referred to the base engine being very close to it's maximum endurance capacity as stock and that squeezing out the last bit of power or torque will not last. Again: when ridden hard and intensly.
4. The Pro package bringing even more power on top and lower especially earlier is stated by Ducati as R only. See Ducati comparison of Evo and Pro attached.
5. We also know that even on the R, who is equipped to handle all this, package nr 5 , being the SBK pipe and mapping is considered not eligible for warranty.
6. Steve Moore, BSB Ducati panigale team-owner , manager and tuner put stronger conrods in his SSTK bikes before the Ducati TI conrods existed.
7. Ducati, through the dealer has come up with a specific maintenance schedule that allows an R to be tracked only and remain under warranty cover.
Can we then conclude that:
1. Messing with the ECU, some exhausts and there mappings to raise output raises reliability and longevity issues
2. Ducati itself opting for some - be it few - very specific parts to be put in their racing oriented version of the Pani is an indication that for such use , those stock parts may probably not up to the job.
3. That by specifically excluding some kits from warranty, those kits are probably too much for that engine in those circumstances.
4. If one wants no issues with warranty, one should stick to allowed kits and ducati mapping only ( follow the ducati upgrades)
5. That for those not upgrading to the stronger parts and yet having or installing kits to up the output to levels as described, there is a twilight zone wherein the engine could blow.
6. That whatever you put on, once you ride it hard all of the time, it may be a good idea to change to those specific parts.
If I did go wrong somewhere, I d very much appreciate if you would point me out where exactly. I yes, i stand to be corrected, i f not, i learned something today and do appriciate your input.
btw : The Pro pipe just got in !
You're 2 cents is more than welcome. I would say finally and I wish you had it thrown in sooner.
Please bear with me as I try to figure out if I understood you correctly.
Even if the exhaust system is just the outlet for combustion residue, there is a clear connection between a certain system and changed - read increased - performance that is showing when applying the formula. Leading to a different number of units called "HP", am I correct?
And that, as Ducati now has already developed 5 different combo's or systems for the Pani ( Stock street, Stock street + slip ons, Evo line, Pro line, and the SBK line) the choice of such an exhaust system seems to be crucial to this performance and also to the way this performance is delivered ( bottom versus top power).
But for each specific system to work to its fullest, it needs a different tuning, being in broad lines, the combination of amount of fuel, air and combustion timing. Items that will add to this tune are: fuel settings ( through DP ECU or aftermarket systems), airfilter and actual timing of the cams. Am I still correct?
So when we refer to a certain type of exhaust system, in fact what we do is refer to a specific combo of tuning "packages" that can be applied in total, partially or combined. And even if we talk about the pipe, in fact, what we are doing is referring to the mapping that is activated by the installation of the pipe and the key that comes with it. Of which the exhaust itself is just the outlet.
From what we can measure from dyno's the range of this differences ( top power and delivery ) can vary quit substantially. And subsequently it is to be expected that these combo's, and how they are put to work together, have an important effect on the heat and pressure on the internal parts of the engine, mainly the pistons and conrods.
If I did understand you correctly, then some things come to mind.
Another given, I guess , is that engine capacity is the major determinating factor as to maximum power output potential ("no substitute for cubic inches")
Question : Does this imply that there is a definite limit to a certain engine capacity? And that the higher the power output gets as standard, the more impact extra tuning will have on longevity and reliability.
Just noting that the 1198 was announced at 170 hp at 9.750 revs back in 2009 ( ref Bikez) and that the Pani base/S/TC was announced at 195 hp at 10.750 revs carrying just 1 cc more , can we conclude that, while going from testastretta to superquadra and gaining 15% more power at the cost of revving 10% more, we have indeed moved substantially closer to what an 1200cc twin engine can maximally deliver? This all while still having to adhere to standards of daily use and stringent environmental regulations. That therefore, while maintaining the same stock parts ( pe : 1198 conrod quality = 1199 base conrod quality) margin for error while changing one aspect of tuning possibilities is reduced significantly. And that even the type of use - street use or intense tracking use - will have a bigger impact on longevity or possible failing of those "high strung" engines. As everything actually hoovers much closer "to the edge"
If there is such a thing as "˜ closer to the edge', can an indication of the fact that, in it's base form, the Quadra actually is pretty close to that limit, be seen in the fact that whereas the 1198R announced another 10 bhp ( 180 at 9750 ) extra over the 1198, the 1199R actually is announced at exactly the same power. While the R engine only did get lighter and stronger parts to handle the higher pressures and heat coming from more powerful tuning combo's ( pe : Pro pipe and mapping ) and intent of intenser use. That tuning packages linked to different exhaust systems need the changing of some very specific internals: the conrods and friction reducing materials ( some ceramic coatings here and there). And a lighter flywheel. All steps taken to strengthen the engine as a whole and reduce friction and stress. And in fact the only steps taken.
Let's be clear about the fact that those tuning combo's will, when done well, all likely not cause an engine to fail with average intensity use. Question is whether, even when applied correctly, there is the possibility that some parts are just not strong enough to withstand many miles off very intense use in connection with track riding and or racing. I don't think I ever suggested that moderate use would kill the engine and that therefore the base engine would not be good. I have allways referred to this "˜close to racing' - tracking + track only bikes.
What worries me is that there are more than enough indications to be able to come to the conclusion that there very likely are. If it kwacks like a duck, "¦ .
these indications are based on following facts.
1. I know personally of 2 engines that did blow. KNOW as in "˜ I held the broken parts'. I know as off today that both broke the conrod of the front cylinder.
a. One of these engines I know for sure had : MWR filter, Rapidbike module, Full mapping, EVO line, SSTK timing done to it. As in indication of evolution : it started at 165 RWHP but now had 193 bhp on the rear wheel ( measured DIN mode). At least 3 more panigales were done that way on this bench and they all raised from 192 up to 201 bhp in Din mode. Indicating that they all were within eachothers range and close to the same ceiling. As for all bikes : Much of the dip had been smoothened out. It had 3000 km on the clock , 2000km track time on fast to very fast tracks (Spa - Mugello,"¦ ). This bike HAD NOT HAD THE REV LIMITER RAISED. There is a pic attached of the piston that came out of that engine.
b. The other Pani, also owned by an intense tracker, was carrying the Pro Pipe. After 10 minutes the engine went.
2. In the warranty debate, Ducati was eventually courteous but did annul the warranty stating that Pani development is a Ducati only thing. Any engine management system put on the bike does make the warranty void.
3. The dealer, who did the timing and maintenance, clearly referred to the base engine being very close to it's maximum endurance capacity as stock and that squeezing out the last bit of power or torque will not last. Again: when ridden hard and intensly.
4. The Pro package bringing even more power on top and lower especially earlier is stated by Ducati as R only. See Ducati comparison of Evo and Pro attached.
5. We also know that even on the R, who is equipped to handle all this, package nr 5 , being the SBK pipe and mapping is considered not eligible for warranty.
6. Steve Moore, BSB Ducati panigale team-owner , manager and tuner put stronger conrods in his SSTK bikes before the Ducati TI conrods existed.
7. Ducati, through the dealer has come up with a specific maintenance schedule that allows an R to be tracked only and remain under warranty cover.
Can we then conclude that:
1. Messing with the ECU, some exhausts and there mappings to raise output raises reliability and longevity issues
2. Ducati itself opting for some - be it few - very specific parts to be put in their racing oriented version of the Pani is an indication that for such use , those stock parts may probably not up to the job.
3. That by specifically excluding some kits from warranty, those kits are probably too much for that engine in those circumstances.
4. If one wants no issues with warranty, one should stick to allowed kits and ducati mapping only ( follow the ducati upgrades)
5. That for those not upgrading to the stronger parts and yet having or installing kits to up the output to levels as described, there is a twilight zone wherein the engine could blow.
6. That whatever you put on, once you ride it hard all of the time, it may be a good idea to change to those specific parts.
If I did go wrong somewhere, I d very much appreciate if you would point me out where exactly. I yes, i stand to be corrected, i f not, i learned something today and do appriciate your input.
btw : The Pro pipe just got in !
Attachments
Last edited:
- Joined
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Generally speaking yes, your statements are correct but I can't say for sure on every sentence you wrote since I can't remember them all and I am too lazy to specifically reply to each one....
With that said, it's a bit of a tangent we are on from what I thought was the original point of contention which is, "Whether an exhaust pipe can blow an engine."
Based on your post maybe we can safely move on to the new question of "Intended usage of a machine has a direct and weighty bearing on the type of parts used and the system/means/logic of which the machine is calibrated mixed in part with marketing puffery of the machine's capabilities."
Jeep says the Wrangler can go everywhere.
Nissan says the Frontier can go everywhere.
BMW says the R1200GS can go everywhere.
Ducati says the Panigale is based on MotoGP and is a race bike.
Yamaha says the R1 is based on MotoGP and is a race bike.
etc...
True statements? Yes, sort of. Is the Panigale a race bike? No. Can the Jeep Wrangler conquer the world's terrain? No. Neither in their stock forms.
Some amount of this puffery is allowed and used legally and readily to sell products.
Would I take a stock Panigale out on the race track with no modifications except for track plastics and expect long life and winning lap times? No.
Would it be more ideal to build your machine for the intended usage? Yes, of course. A track bike needs the bulk of its power production higher up in the RPM band, hence the race oriented pipe options. Large diameter means a shift in power to higher RPMs.....Higher than stock parts can sustain for extended time? Looks like it! Does this mean the exhaust blew the engine? Not hardly!
That's not even getting into the different tuning (AF/timing) needs of a track bike/car vs a drag bike/car vs a streeet bike/car. All run at very different temps for different periods of time and need very different approaches to calibration.
Hope that helps....?
I will add that I recall you mentioning that the blown engines were due to surpassing the horsepower levels a 1200 cc engine can safely handle. Hopefully my post has illustrated that this is not the case. With stronger and more appropriate parts, whether it be rods or pins or whatever, more RPM can be reached for more horsepower. RPMs are in a way a replacement for displacement. Typically a smaller engine can rev higher than a larger one, all else equal. If you say more power at one specific RPM like, 4000 or 8000, then yes, bigger is better. Then you have gearing, etc to compensate or utilize the engine power curve.
Look at a Formula 1 engine. 2.4 liter V8, which means TINY pistons and a very short stroke. But 18K RPMs which means 800 HP from an engine with 4 banger sized displacement. That is more than the 7.0 liter V8 in the Z06 Corvette.... Of course the Z06 is fun to drive on the road and a F1 car would stall leaving a stop light, it's why they spin the tires leaving the pits....to keep from stalling!
With that said, it's a bit of a tangent we are on from what I thought was the original point of contention which is, "Whether an exhaust pipe can blow an engine."
Based on your post maybe we can safely move on to the new question of "Intended usage of a machine has a direct and weighty bearing on the type of parts used and the system/means/logic of which the machine is calibrated mixed in part with marketing puffery of the machine's capabilities."
Jeep says the Wrangler can go everywhere.
Nissan says the Frontier can go everywhere.
BMW says the R1200GS can go everywhere.
Ducati says the Panigale is based on MotoGP and is a race bike.
Yamaha says the R1 is based on MotoGP and is a race bike.
etc...
True statements? Yes, sort of. Is the Panigale a race bike? No. Can the Jeep Wrangler conquer the world's terrain? No. Neither in their stock forms.
Some amount of this puffery is allowed and used legally and readily to sell products.
Would I take a stock Panigale out on the race track with no modifications except for track plastics and expect long life and winning lap times? No.
Would it be more ideal to build your machine for the intended usage? Yes, of course. A track bike needs the bulk of its power production higher up in the RPM band, hence the race oriented pipe options. Large diameter means a shift in power to higher RPMs.....Higher than stock parts can sustain for extended time? Looks like it! Does this mean the exhaust blew the engine? Not hardly!
That's not even getting into the different tuning (AF/timing) needs of a track bike/car vs a drag bike/car vs a streeet bike/car. All run at very different temps for different periods of time and need very different approaches to calibration.
Hope that helps....?
I will add that I recall you mentioning that the blown engines were due to surpassing the horsepower levels a 1200 cc engine can safely handle. Hopefully my post has illustrated that this is not the case. With stronger and more appropriate parts, whether it be rods or pins or whatever, more RPM can be reached for more horsepower. RPMs are in a way a replacement for displacement. Typically a smaller engine can rev higher than a larger one, all else equal. If you say more power at one specific RPM like, 4000 or 8000, then yes, bigger is better. Then you have gearing, etc to compensate or utilize the engine power curve.
Look at a Formula 1 engine. 2.4 liter V8, which means TINY pistons and a very short stroke. But 18K RPMs which means 800 HP from an engine with 4 banger sized displacement. That is more than the 7.0 liter V8 in the Z06 Corvette.... Of course the Z06 is fun to drive on the road and a F1 car would stall leaving a stop light, it's why they spin the tires leaving the pits....to keep from stalling!
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Why all the name calling? That's the crap that ruins the forum and I think your argument is just over samantics. A pipe in conjunction with a bad tune or wrong application can surely blow an engine. A pipe by itself...I don't know but one thing is for sure. Never say Never. Thanks
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No. I said in the very first statement all the way through. A pipe can not cause failure. Its the tune or as stated the user raised his rpm ceiling causing failure. A pipe can not cause failure.
Kobe is still sticking to his guns that it is possible for a header to cause failure. He's flatly incompetent if he thinks that. Any engine tuner will tell you what I've said here. Its common knowledge and common sense. Unfortunately on this board people confuse the ability to spend money with the ability to know wtf you are talking about.
Prove know it alls wrong and they get pissy.
Kobe was using his header theory to tell non R owners their bikes could blow and that the Header is R only. That's flatly bullcrap and anyone could use it with a competent tune. I tried to correct him and then Wilkson and all the other nut swingers come to his defense without really thinking first.
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As to gatti the man, one question : if an engine can withstand 200 bhp before it blows and an exhaust system takes it to 203 and then the engine does blow , what to your enlightened engineering brain caused the engine to blow ? Please, Do shed some light in this darkness surrounding me ..
Kind regards
Kope[/QUOTE]
Well this pretty much proves my point. No manufacturer ever does that. Ducati obviously didn't since they include maps for the full termi exhaust in the base and S models. Do you really think Ducati leaves that tune on the hair of failure? No.
You do realize Ducati must leave plenty of room on the table to protect themselves. Every manufacturer does this. Firstly because an engines power output is variable by temp and altitude but also by many other variables. The fact that I have to explain this to you pretty much sums up why you can't be trusted for info besides directly parroting something you were told. You have no engine knowledge.
Kind regards
Kope[/QUOTE]
Well this pretty much proves my point. No manufacturer ever does that. Ducati obviously didn't since they include maps for the full termi exhaust in the base and S models. Do you really think Ducati leaves that tune on the hair of failure? No.
You do realize Ducati must leave plenty of room on the table to protect themselves. Every manufacturer does this. Firstly because an engines power output is variable by temp and altitude but also by many other variables. The fact that I have to explain this to you pretty much sums up why you can't be trusted for info besides directly parroting something you were told. You have no engine knowledge.
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The first step to recovery is recognition:
I have an 'R'....and I am not special.
There....I've said it....I feel much better now.
I have an 'R'....and I am not special.
There....I've said it....I feel much better now.
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