PRO Pipe on a non R bike

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As to gatti the man, one question : if an engine can withstand 200 bhp before it blows and an exhaust system takes it to 203 and then the engine does blow , what to your enlightened engineering brain caused the engine to blow ? Please, Do shed some light in this darkness surrounding me ..

Kind regards

Kope[/QUOTE]

Well this pretty much proves my point. No manufacturer ever does that. Ducati obviously didn't since they include maps for the full termi exhaust in the base and S models. Do you really think Ducati leaves that tune on the hair of failure? No.

You do realize Ducati must leave plenty of room on the table to protect themselves. Every manufacturer does this. Firstly because an engines power output is variable by temp and altitude but also by many other variables. The fact that I have to explain this to you pretty much sums up why you can't be trusted for info besides directly parroting something you were told. You have no engine knowledge.
 
The first step to recovery is recognition:

I have an 'R'....and I am not special.

There....I've said it....I feel much better now.
 
well great gatti, i clearly stated a zillion times by now i'm no engineer and have no engine knowledge. i do my utmost to comprehend what i do not. perhaps i bit of good will to read what's there could help you through the day without pissing vinigar.
 
I'm going to avoid the exhaust portion but chime in about the hp level related to displacement.

Higgs touched on some great points but just wanted to add to that. We are no where close to hp/displacement limit for these engines. One of the other key technologies in F1 that enables the ultra high RPMs is pnuematic valves. They actually use nitrogen air as a "spring" instead of metal springs to prevent the valve stem from going "ballistic" and lifting off the cam at high speed. There are even some fairly mainstream technologies that haven't been added yet. One of which is direct injection. The cooling effect of injecting fuel directly into the combustion chamber helps prevent pre-ignition or knock and allows for a compression increase of about 1 and a power increase of about 3%. Currently, engineers have to choose a cam profile and timing that is a compromise (i can write a longer explanation of this if desired). Continously variable valve lift and variable intake and exhaust timing is also mainstream in high end cars and can provide a power increase of about 10-12% (but will add a few lbs of weight). High BMEP engines using cooled EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) are also going to become mainstream in the next few years providing another few % bump in power. The stress on the engine components is generally not the limiting factor at all...we use all kinds of stress and fatigue analysis tools to determine how thin we can make parts. If there are higher firing pressures, we can use better materials or make things thicker or use coatings etc. Just to give you guys an idea of the types of durability tests we run on engines... aside from hot chamber testing and cold chamber testing down to -40C, a common test is run the engines at redline for 500 hours on a dyno. Considering you only see redline for a second at a time before shifting, this is a very extreme test. Also run thousands of full throttle tip in situation etc. If designed correctly and a proper tune applied... engines should be fine racing all day long...
 
The exhaust system is a very important part of a performance package.

Unfortunately, it seems to be a very common practice to overestimate the positive effects an exhaust system can have on the overall performance of the bike (in this case). There are negatives.

Without starting a novel, :eek:, pulse tuning attempts to "tune" the pulses from the cylinders as they fire in order to promote scavenging out of the cylinders and though the exhaust system, in order, without a drop in velocity. There is also a negative return pulse, and reversion, so things can get very tricky. There are many factors that will influence the "tune" in the exhaust that will directly effect what is happening in the cylinder and thereby "tell" the ecu through sensors where to compensate in its maps.

For example, higher cylinder pressures and/or more heat will lower the detonation threshold and in effect, produce one necessary condition that can result in a "blown motor". Assuming that the ecu cannot pull the necessary timing or cut fuel in time to prevent catastrophic failure.

Regardless of the engine configuration, you can take any tune "onto the edge" which means if one variable crosses over that edge, say ambient temperatures rise, you could lose a motor. Its not a good idea to get to greedy on the dyno, particularly for street bikes that are used in highly variable conditions without practically any maintenance compared to race bikes.

Check out this link for a basic overview of exhaust designs and applications including an interesting spin on exhaust tuning in MotoGP for improving grip!

Exhaust System Technology: Science and Implementation of High Performance Exhaust Systems
 
higgs, Trans and Reds : thanks for all your input. this is why i'm here. so someone who knows can point things out to me... and finally , we got something going that, however technical , will shed the light we're looking for. :)
 
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i dont care what anybody says the full system is not worth the money. termi slips upmap call it a day. until termi comes with a Ti pipe it will never be worth it. you are paying for ANOTHER stainless steel header just 20mm wider doesnt really do anything. the reason for a full system is mostly weight savings. your not really saving anything getting the same pipe. come on i know you want to think its special (full system) but its not. i have the slips because of the slight sound difference, weight savings (ti cans vs stock which is very heavy), and ease of new maps from ducati. if you want to waste the cash on a full system go ahead but dont kid yourself that you will see any difference in your riding abilities.
As for the R it comes with it so yes i would have it installed why wouldnt i.

I actually will prefer to use a stainless steel system on my race bike as it can be repaired easy enough which is not the case with a titanium system .
For a street bike I agree but these headers are more suited to a track only bike .
 
Gatti boy, what is your problem? You are a rookie track rider in beginners group who does not even know when a tire is used up, you do not know what wheels are on your bike and you try to be an expert about the Pani engine?

I do not understand the reason to attack a forum member who has done more with his Panigale than you will ever do.

Kope, keep up the good work and keep posting your track riding experiences. I for one enjoy reading them.
 
I promised I would give some insight on the people I get my info from and to why I give them high credibility. As stated, I am no engineer myself, have no mechanical background and have not been riding from 1997 to 2011. My track experience before getting back on a superbike probably was not more than 120 laps, 85% of them at Zolder. To be confident enough to do all this, I had to be absolutely certain of the people I'm doing this with and who are, in fact, building, developing upgrading and maintaining the bike and are coaching me with the prepping and riding of track events. All in the spirit to do things as well as possible and to do the bike a bit of justice So ride it to the very best of my abilities within a safe environment. I was willing to commit serious means but also dedication, time to learn and to improve my physical condition to cope. From my side I would liaise internationally and invest in development when needed. I also offered to put some logistical support to the endeavour. Getting a van big enough and equipment to carry 4 bikes and gear so it's easier for people to get to far away tracks such as Valencia and Aragon. And avoiding ridiculous cost. Such projects carry huge potential to buy wisely or stupidly. And that difference is what leads to costly or just plain stupid.
Therefore I'm extremely happy that these people have taken me on board and are willing to share their quit rare knowledge of all major aspects needed to make this project possible. It all started as so many things start: getting talking on one night in the Ducati Club. Ideas started flowing from there. The two main people are Luc and Stef. Both have been Ducati addicts for decades and have been assembling some of the top garages one can come across that cover the whole of modern Ducati superbike history and specials. One of them is happy to share a pic of his garage here. What sets them both apart is that they build and ride their own bike themselves, bar the things needing a dealer to keep warranty going. And when they ride, they do this well, having gone off only twice in twenty years while riding in the top 8% of participants anytime everywhere. They are very close to Motorsportschool (Motorsportschool Zolder) one of the major tracking events companies in Holland and Belgium having access to tracks like Spa, Assen and organizing stints at many international GP venues. They are also instructors at this company that organizes brand track tests for ducati (pani) and Bmw "˜(1000RR) . Luc is also the Pirelli tire specialist for racing tires. Part of this company is also the base for Werner Damen's Van ZON IDM BMW Factory race team. Werner still holds the Superbike record of Spa. Belgium is a small country and does have some very knowledgable teams. Alstare is probably the most topnotch outfit. The heads on the 999R I did were flowed by the guy who now builds Checa's engines. Small means everyone pretty much knows everyone and so we do catch some vibes from within from time to time.
For set up and suspension I'm happy to be able to rely on Steven from EMC37 ( What does EMC37 do ? Bike Setup ) , former factory race and development rider for MV Augusta and now owns Ohlins shop and maintenance centre, setup and data analysis expert for several teams active in the world endurance championship. He's also the author of 2 major books on setup and suspension "˜de chrono liegt niet 1 &2' (De Chrono Liegt Niet 2). A book that unfortunately hasn't been translated in English yet.
And when it comes to tuning "˜from scratch' I guess there is no one who travelled so many miles that Steve Moore, owner , manager and chief developer of Moto Rapido. (https://www.facebook.com/DucatiRacing?ref=ts&fref=ts ). MR is the only team that has been riding the Pani in the toughest SBK series apart from WSBK, that is BSB. Running RS's and superstocks. Especially good to know is that BSB has Motec control systems that come in a box empty and need full development, including designing and making all wiring and looms. And the has to be filled with the setup parameters. So Steve has been developing the Pani perhaps as much as Corse. As what Magnetti Marelli did for Corse and Alstare, Steve has to do for himself. And has done so successfully. MR rider this year is MATTEO BAIOCCO, Ducati factory development rider. Steve truly is a top notch guy and I'm hounored to have him answer emails. 15 minutes with him is enough to get some definite answers on complex issues. A pic of Steve looking into the brain of the bike.
Without these guys never ever would I have been able to mount this project. Especially within this time frame - the bike was 90% ready in 45 days after delivery - and get where we are. Which is still quit a way to go. Special thanks goes out to Luc who has a in depth knowledge of all Ducati models that defies belief. His will to share things matches this knowhow. Apart from all this they're also sheer fun to hang out with! Not wanting to be just the money man , I committed to get in shape so I lost 20 kgs of weight. Which is a blessing. As to riding, I seem to get as close to 1 second per kilometre from them which makes me pretty happy and is way beyond anything I expected. So if some people make a crusade of telling me I know .... on engines, they have reached Jerusalem as I know I don't now ..... Reached. But I made damn sure I'm in the middle of some people who do know an awful lot. Even all there is to know. Even so much I ve never encountered anyone who knows more. So I "˜ve got a very good idea of who knows and doesn't know.
These is the background I get facts, ideas and analysis from. I guess it should make it more than reliable enough for comfort. Again, these people take this serious and I take this serious as it is too ....... dangerous just to be mucking about. The Pani as a bike in general is a work in progress and still has a lot of development to be done to it. And development carries risk of breakage. I don't want to be the one telling you to just bolt on things and then have you spit a bucket of oil on your tires and in front of some fellow riders. Bold should not become reckless.
In the meantime we did SPA, Valencia, Aragon, Brands Hatch indy , Donington, Assen, Mettet. By the end of the year we will have done Zolder, Le Mans, Brands GP, Spa and Assen again and we hope to close the season off with Mugello. And it's been all I ever hoped it would be. A great undertaking with some top crew and just plain good company.
 

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I'm scared to get the pipe.

I'm out as well.

If it s an R , you can carry it . If not , you can carry it but will have add dynojet or rapidbike and tune it. that will get your warranty in trouble. And if its not an R and you ride it hard and track only it s twilight zone and not something i would do
 
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I promised I would give some insight on the people I get my info from and to why I give them high credibility. As stated, I am no engineer myself, have no mechanical background and have not been riding from 1997 to 2011. My track experience before getting back on a superbike probably was not more than 120 laps, 85% of them at Zolder. To be confident enough to do all this, I had to be absolutely certain of the people I'm doing this with and who are, in fact, building, developing upgrading and maintaining the bike and are coaching me with the prepping and riding of track events. All in the spirit to do things as well as possible and to do the bike a bit of justice So ride it to the very best of my abilities within a safe environment. I was willing to commit serious means but also dedication, time to learn and to improve my physical condition to cope. From my side I would liaise internationally and invest in development when needed. I also offered to put some logistical support to the endeavour. Getting a van big enough and equipment to carry 4 bikes and gear so it's easier for people to get to far away tracks such as Valencia and Aragon. And avoiding ridiculous cost. Such projects carry huge potential to buy wisely or stupidly. And that difference is what leads to costly or just plain stupid.
Therefore I'm extremely happy that these people have taken me on board and are willing to share their quit rare knowledge of all major aspects needed to make this project possible. It all started as so many things start: getting talking on one night in the Ducati Club. Ideas started flowing from there. The two main people are Luc and Stef. Both have been Ducati addicts for decades and have been assembling some of the top garages one can come across that cover the whole of modern Ducati superbike history and specials. One of them is happy to share a pic of his garage here. What sets them both apart is that they build and ride their own bike themselves, bar the things needing a dealer to keep warranty going. And when they ride, they do this well, having gone off only twice in twenty years while riding in the top 8% of participants anytime everywhere. They are very close to Motorsportschool (Motorsportschool Zolder) one of the major tracking events companies in Holland and Belgium having access to tracks like Spa, Assen and organizing stints at many international GP venues. They are also instructors at this company that organizes brand track tests for ducati (pani) and Bmw "˜(1000RR) . Luc is also the Pirelli tire specialist for racing tires. Part of this company is also the base for Werner Damen's Van ZON IDM BMW Factory race team. Werner still holds the Superbike record of Spa. Belgium is a small country and does have some very knowledgable teams. Alstare is probably the most topnotch outfit. The heads on the 999R I did were flowed by the guy who now builds Checa's engines. Small means everyone pretty much knows everyone and so we do catch some vibes from within from time to time.
For set up and suspension I'm happy to be able to rely on Steven from EMC37 ( What does EMC37 do ? Bike Setup ) , former factory race and development rider for MV Augusta and now owns Ohlins shop and maintenance centre, setup and data analysis expert for several teams active in the world endurance championship. He's also the author of 2 major books on setup and suspension "˜de chrono liegt niet 1 &2' (De Chrono Liegt Niet 2). A book that unfortunately hasn't been translated in English yet.
And when it comes to tuning "˜from scratch' I guess there is no one who travelled so many miles that Steve Moore, owner , manager and chief developer of Moto Rapido. (https://www.facebook.com/DucatiRacing?ref=ts&fref=ts ). MR is the only team that has been riding the Pani in the toughest SBK series apart from WSBK, that is BSB. Running RS's and superstocks. Especially good to know is that BSB has Motec control systems that come in a box empty and need full development, including designing and making all wiring and looms. And the has to be filled with the setup parameters. So Steve has been developing the Pani perhaps as much as Corse. As what Magnetti Marelli did for Corse and Alstare, Steve has to do for himself. And has done so successfully. MR rider this year is MATTEO BAIOCCO, Ducati factory development rider. Steve truly is a top notch guy and I'm hounored to have him answer emails. 15 minutes with him is enough to get some definite answers on complex issues. A pic of Steve looking into the brain of the bike.
Without these guys never ever would I have been able to mount this project. Especially within this time frame - the bike was 90% ready in 45 days after delivery - and get where we are. Which is still quit a way to go. Special thanks goes out to Luc who has a in depth knowledge of all Ducati models that defies belief. His will to share things matches this knowhow. Apart from all this they're also sheer fun to hang out with! Not wanting to be just the money man , I committed to get in shape so I lost 20 kgs of weight. Which is a blessing. As to riding, I seem to get as close to 1 second per kilometre from them which makes me pretty happy and is way beyond anything I expected. So if some people make a crusade of telling me I know .... on engines, they have reached Jerusalem as I know I don't now ..... Reached. But I made damn sure I'm in the middle of some people who do know an awful lot. Even all there is to know. Even so much I ve never encountered anyone who knows more. So I "˜ve got a very good idea of who knows and doesn't know.
These is the background I get facts, ideas and analysis from. I guess it should make it more than reliable enough for comfort. Again, these people take this serious and I take this serious as it is too ....... dangerous just to be mucking about. The Pani as a bike in general is a work in progress and still has a lot of development to be done to it. And development carries risk of breakage. I don't want to be the one telling you to just bolt on things and then have you spit a bucket of oil on your tires and in front of some fellow riders. Bold should not become reckless.
In the meantime we did SPA, Valencia, Aragon, Brands Hatch indy , Donington, Assen, Mettet. By the end of the year we will have done Zolder, Le Mans, Brands GP, Spa and Assen again and we hope to close the season off with Mugello. And it's been all I ever hoped it would be. A great undertaking with some top crew and just plain good company.
I can't believe I read all that. It basically says. "I write checks so please listen to me."

Yes you need to get your bike tuned by a pro (duh) just like you should get your suspension set up by a pro. I have also written checks with engine builders and tuners that build full race cars like LG motorsports, Pfadt Racing, Off Road suspension tuning and many others.

Honestly your pros might be suspect since the very first thing you should have done to your headers is get them Jet Hot Coated or coated with some other anti heat coating over seas. This is a must and since you didn't yet again I find your advisors and you questionable.

Tracking an S without warranty is all you seem to have a problem with since you have said many times prior you believe the base and S motors are time bombs on the track without TI internals. That's wrong as well. It taints your whole topic.
 
Indeed my pro's are super suspect. As is the whole of the WSBK paddock..
and those engines i talk about weren't blown , they were just disassembled unskilfully by those morons..

Gatti, You're absolutely right on everything any time you say something...and I don't know .... about anything. happy now?
 
Indeed my pro's are super suspect. As is the whole of the WSBK paddock..
and those engines i talk about weren't blown , they were just disassembled unskilfully by those morons..

Gatti, You're absolutely right on everything any time you say something...and I don't know .... about anything. happy now?

Again...Thanks for all the great info and posts Kope.

I for one would rely on Kope's findings and "suspect" pro's and the whole WSBK paddock over all 100% correct info gatti has provided.:rolleyes:
 
well great gatti, i clearly stated a zillion times by now i'm no engineer and have no engine knowledge. i do my utmost to comprehend what i do not. perhaps i bit of good will to read what's there could help you through the day without pissing vinigar.


Tell me more about this "pissing vinegar" you speak of...
 
Took a while to get to the good stuff and through the anger.

Glad I stuck with it.
 
Hey look I can jump on a forum and post crap to argue with someone just for the sake of arguing. Honestly gatti sounds like a chick in heat.

But I'm part of the problem, I'm an engineer with a Pani R. Kope - I'm going to teach you something.

Boo who. ........

Thats how stupid this discussion is sounding.
 
Wow... I didn't read the whole thing, but Kope has some VERY smart people that DO know their .... and whether he writes checks, is a trust fund baby, works hard for his money or is a 16 year old with a really rich daddy, he DOES have some of the best people helping him out. Kudos on him and if you are jealous, that's cool. I have to admit I am, but I respect the guy as he SHARES his findings and his knowledge with all of us.

As for the header, they do make one for the standard and S models now... It makes a difference. Not sure if a street bike makes sense on any of these longer pipes, but hey... Many a street guy has a bike that would be the envy of racers everywhere...

Oh, and to the Gratti guy saying you are not getting good service if you do not ceramic coat your headers/pipes? HUH??

That's pretty funny since about every racer over here doesn't have them coated... Guess we all have stupid people tuning and building our stuff also...
 

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