Hmmmmm, Mixed review and feelings about the Panigale in MCN against the others

My friend feels exactly the same as the original poster in that he's questioning his purchase of his Tricolore. He thought pound for pound, the 1199 would be the ultimate sportbike. it's lighter than the BMW and more HP- so why is it coming in second to other bikes? One review has it behind the BMW and another has it behind the Aprilia RSV4 ARC model- both UK tests.
He's actually financially fortunate enough to own both the BMW and new 2012 Mv Agusta RR, so his Tricolore purchase is not about his choice of bike but rather the (disappointing) hype this Duc has received and has yet to top other sportbikes- it's just not making sense to him (and to myself a bit as well)...........we both have our bikes paid for and are awaiting delivery, but he's actually thinking of cancelling his Tricolore as he simply wanted the "best" sport-bike out there but he feels the Ducati will not rank #1 in coming tests based on the few UK tests/reviews. If his BMW ends up being number one again then he feels the purchase of the Tricolore isn't about having the "best" sport-bike (as indicated by tests and numbers) but merely a purchase of another NEW sport-bike.
I've tried to calm him down and explain it'll be the lightest liter-bike ever and for that alone it's worth the price- but he says he bought into "Ducati's Hype" about this bike bike being the future of sport-bikes and that it WILL be the highest performing sportbike available to date- which he feels it may not be!
I'm still happy with the purchase, but I bought a base model while he has the much more expensive Tricolore model on order.......he's not liking what he's hearing and he may cancel altogether and get the RSV4 or something else~

Before anyone starts bashing his concerns, pause for a second and realize he's not concerned whether HE can ride the bike to the limit or post impressive lap times- he's simply seeking the #1 ranked sport-bike of which based on the hype, he thought to be the Panigale 1199 Tricolore. Ducati claims 195HP which beats his present BMW by 2HP at a much lighter weight- so it stands to reason this would likely end up being the fastest sport-bike available- and based on the few tests available- such has not been the case.....this alone is his concern- is the 1199 the "fastest lapping, fastest top speed" bike available....so far it does not seem to be. So he's doubting his purchase of the Panigale as the ultimate sportbike in 2012.

As for me- I'm trying to be patient and just waiting like tons of other people, but I'm not sure how patient I can be---- hurry up and bring these bikes to the USA already- stock is arriving slowly!

Cheers everyone!

SteveNunez said:

My friend feels exactly the same as the original poster in that he's questioning his purchase of his Tricolore. He thought pound for pound, the 1199 would be the ultimate sportbike. it's lighter than the BMW and more HP- so why is it coming in second to other bikes? One review has it behind the BMW and another has it behind the Aprilia RSV4 ARC model- both UK tests.
He's actually financially fortunate enough to own both the BMW and new 2012 Mv Agusta RR, so his Tricolore purchase is not about his choice of bike but rather the (disappointing) hype this Duc has received and has yet to top other sportbikes- it's just not making sense to him (and to myself a bit as well)...........we both have our bikes paid for and are awaiting delivery, but he's actually thinking of cancelling his Tricolore as he simply wanted the "best" sport-bike out there but he feels the Ducati will not rank #1 in coming tests based on the few UK tests/reviews. If his BMW ends up being number one again then he feels the purchase of the Tricolore isn't about having the "best" sport-bike (as indicated by tests and numbers) but merely a purchase of another NEW sport-bike.
I've tried to calm him down and explain it'll be the lightest liter-bike ever and for that alone it's worth the price- but he says he bought into "Ducati's Hype" about this bike bike being the future of sport-bikes and that it WILL be the highest performing sportbike available to date- which he feels it may not be!
I'm still happy with the purchase, but I bought a base model while he has the much more expensive Tricolore model on order.......he's not liking what he's hearing and he may cancel altogether and get the RSV4 or something else~

Before anyone starts bashing his concerns, pause for a second and realize he's not concerned whether HE can ride the bike to the limit or post impressive lap times- he's simply seeking the #1 ranked sport-bike of which based on the hype, he thought to be the Panigale 1199 Tricolore. Ducati claims 195HP which beats his present BMW by 2HP at a much lighter weight- so it stands to reason this would likely end up being the fastest sport-bike available- and based on the few tests available- such has not been the case.....this alone is his concern- is the 1199 the "fastest lapping, fastest top speed" bike available....so far it does not seem to be. So he's doubting his purchase of the Panigale as the ultimate sportbike in 2012.

As for me- I'm trying to be patient and just waiting like tons of other people, but I'm not sure how patient I can be---- hurry up and bring these bikes to the USA already- stock is arriving slowly!

Cheers everyone!

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ye despite all the post-rationalisation in this forum (myself included) there are a ton of people out there that feel the same way.

Given that Ducati admit to benchmarking against the BMW & RSV4 it makes you wonder why they thought it would be ok for a lighter, more powerful bike to be to slower.

And before I get flamed I guess some of us are still shallow enough for this to matter.

WAfatboy said:

ye despite all the post-rationalisation in this forum (myself included) there are a ton of people out there that feel the same way.

Given that Ducati admit to benchmarking against the BMW & RSV4 it makes you wonder why they thought it would be ok for a lighter, more powerful bike to be to slower.

And before I get flamed I guess some of us are still shallow enough for this to matter.

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I'm with you... if someone advertises a superior bike and asks me to pay a premium price I would expect them to live up to their hype

No post rationalization here, I only benchmarked it against the 1198 (which is it's only competition for my buying dollar), so for me it's still a winner.

jjmontesanto said:

No post rationalization here, I only benchmarked it against the 1198 (which is it's only competition for my buying dollar), so for me it's still a winner.

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+1 !!!

Just because some tester on some track, who may or may not know how to get the most out of a Ducati came up a second or less slower on a track means the Panigale is not the current king of sportbikes is rediculous. The tester probably owns a S1000RR and is more comfortable on the Beemer. Its like giving Troy Bayliss as a tester and see how the Ducati dominates and see how bad the Honda or Kawasaki does! Good God, do you only buy vehicles that win comparos on Motor Trend or do you like Road and Track. Personally I will be damn happy to add another Duc to the stable. Why base on which is the MCN favorite when it will only be the favorite till the next big thing comes out.

I hear you guys loud and clear.....but let's assume for a minute the USA test magazines and web reviews also find the bike good but not faster than the BMW or Aprilia on track....you've got to admit that would have to cause wonder as to why the bike is not topping the reviews.
In the MCN test, didn't the BMW lap two seconds faster than the Ducati.....that's an eternity for a lap and in all honesty I haven't seen such a time disparity with the Japanese bikes as they're usually all within a second of each other......for a class leading bike like the 1199 not to topple the BMW during testing is actually a little baffling, they should be very closely matched with the edge going to the Ducati......two seconds per lap is a full minute behind in a 30 lap race!
I'm hoping the testers had the shock linkage wrong and perhaps other settings off.....but if future reviews also indicate the 1199 second or third in rankings to other Superbikes, I'd have to wonder if Ducati made the right design choices for this motorcycle.

jjmontesanto said:

No post rationalization here, I only benchmarked it against the 1198 (which is it's only competition for my buying dollar), so for me it's still a winner.

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DUCENZO said:

+1 !!!

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+ 2 !! I know what it takes to set up a Ducati, once done it will be on top.
But I still dont buy them for that reason...I buy them because they are not the perfect motorcycle, why would I want something that is perfect, how boring, but they are built with soul and passion and most of all they are the best V-Twin available and no other motorcycle delivers anything like the sound of a Ducati.....with all that why would I look anywhere else

There is an accumulations of issues:

First that the bike isn't living up to the hype so far. Checkmate ad campaign was pretty compelling, especially with a hard working rider like Bayliss saying how great it is.

Behind schedule on production.

Company being sold.

Quality control with some bikes smoking, others not. Some bike have exhaust valve issues at 2500, others at 4500, etc (point is RPM is different).

Poor fuel economy.

Top speed is lower that I would think it should be. Bike is narrow and HP is high. Usually those help top speed.

Big HP and light weight, great electronics and still almost 2 seconds a lap behind other bikes. This was using tires designed for this bike.

Loud stock pipes keeping some from running on db limited tracks.

Termi's are $2000 USD and some are reporting poor quality control. For $2000 they should be pretty damn near perfect.

Bike is still seems awesome and does a lot of things right. My base/abs is paid in full, just waiting and waiting and waiting.....
I'm just bitching because I want it to be the best of the best. This will be the most expensive bike I have ever purchased. It helps me justify my purchase in MY mind. There isn't any other bike that I want. Maybe a redesigned Aprilia with ABS when it comes to market.

Chris

turnone said:

I'm just bitching because I want it to be the best of the best.
Chris

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Damn right, just hoping it can live up to the riding pleasure I'm getting from my current Ducatis...

SteveNunez said:

I hear you guys loud and clear.....but let's assume for a minute the USA test magazines and web reviews also find the bike good but not faster than the BMW or Aprilia on track....you've got to admit that would have to cause wonder as to why the bike is not topping the reviews.
In the MCN test, didn't the BMW lap two seconds faster than the Ducati.....that's an eternity for a lap and in all honesty I haven't seen such a time disparity with the Japanese bikes as they're usually all within a second of each other......for a class leading bike like the 1199 not to topple the BMW during testing is actually a little baffling, they should be very closely matched with the edge going to the Ducati......two seconds per lap is a full minute behind in a 30 lap race!
I'm hoping the testers had the shock linkage wrong and perhaps other settings off.....but if future reviews also indicate the 1199 second or third in rankings to other Superbikes, I'd have to wonder if Ducati made the right design choices for this motorcycle.

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The 2 sec gap was what really made me think.

I already have a bike that i love to ride, a convertible I love to drive and an Audi TT to get me to work and back, so the impetus to buy another vehicle was driven by the fact that this was the most beautiful Ducati I had seen for ages, ( I am not a fan of the 1098/1198 at ALL) and the fact that it was ALSO the meanest mofo (based on the weight, power and electronics package) which tipped me over the edge.

I bought my very first bike, the original Cagiva Mito, within 10 mins of seeing it in a magazine and pretty much most of of my other bikes including the 1972 Laverda Jota were impulse purchases or childhood dreams that I'd seen growing up in the UK or Italy.

I also know that the pure performance, especially straight line performance isn't the 'be all and end all', I bought my one and only japanese bike, the original ZX12R based on the 'Most powerful/fastest production bike' line and quickly realised the bike had no soul at all and sold it for the last of the 900SS with carbon Termis that was a far better bike even though it would be left in exhaust fumes of the ZX12.

On a different but related tack. The Audi TT had lots of good reviews when i bought it but a number of journalists were quoted saying the 'dynamics' weren't quite right. After 4 years of ownership I can tell you exactly what they meant - it doesn't steer, corner or shift gear in a way to make you want to drive it fast, so it sits in Auto mode and even the paddle shift rarely gets used (the downshift is nasty, the Alfa box is so much sweeter on the downshift, and yes I know its a different type of box). So in that context I'm seeing a lot of comments about the way the bike rides and handles that also make me nervous - things about stability, ride, lack of grunt in the mid-range ( I spent 5k on my harley trying to sort out a dip in the TQ curve). Not to mention the 'going quiet, stall' thing that has been mentioned etc etc.

So as the point when I have to hand over the best part of AUD$40,000 approaches I think I could be forgiven for having second thoughts, even though thats not enough for me to cancel.

Whether its the fastest or not, it needs to be the best riding experience I've ever had sans niggles, and I will be happy.

Ducati, if anyone is reading these forums, you better not let us all down!

I think on fairness the big issue here is not so much the bike but the Ducati ad campaign. They really are in danger of false advertising with their claims. Let's not forget Bayloss said it was "the fastest bike he's ever ridden around the track". That means faster than his 1098R race bike & if we're calling a spade a spade his MotoGP Desmocedicci. The lap times in the tests seem to dispute that thoroughly.

Bayliss also said it cracked 300kph on the straight. Of that's the case, why did Ducati blur out the speed on the dash in the video of Bayliss' lap? Surely that's being deceptive? Quite frankly I don't care if it can do 300 or 270 but it's the principle - if they say it can do 300 then it should do 300.

What does worry me about the test in Fast Bike Vs the RC8 & RSV4 is that in the 0-60, 0-100, Std Qtr mile, Stding mile & top speed tests the 1199s didn't come out on top in ANY of these tests. Was always 2nd or 3rd - the RC8 took the shorter races (grunt) & the RSV the longer ones (top-end). That's a little disheartening I must say because I think the 1198SP would have won at least some of those tests.

I come back to "how does the bike make you feel". Agree that the 1198 was its only real competition in that regard so still feels like the right purchase (for me).

What does confuse me though is that Ducati said that it was 10kg lighter with 25 more HP. Now they say the S with ABS is actually only something like 1.5kg lighter as they were comparing base models. That does seem misleading to me - usually they would reference the S model when making such claims.

But here's what really confuses the hell out of me: if the 1199S is only 1.5kg lighter than the 1198SP, does that justify the radical shift in chassis design such as no trellis frame, side mounted rear shock that digs into your thigh, engine as stressed member, tiny screen etc. SURELY they coulda saved over 1.5kg on the 1198 by replacing all the plastic with carbon? Then adding the 3 spoke 1199S wheels to the 1198SP would make it significantly lighter than the 1199S. And let's face it - a shitload better in the event of a spill - I don't see many 1199s surviving anything other than minor spills - any sort of impact goes directly to the engine which can't be good...

So real head-scratcher...and before anyone says ABS is optional, it's not on the S model in Oz & they ran the same ads here.

RE the power, let's face it, what Ducati has done is do to the Testastratta engine the same thing BMW did to the Inline 4 1000cc engine - reduce the stroke & increase the bore for more top end & less bottom / mid-range. Not saying there's anything wrong with that but it's hardly ground breaking. And the one big criticism of the S1000RR is lack of mid range - is that gonna be the case with the Panigale engine? Remains to be seen but I did think the 1198 engine was a bit unusable in most situations so a more revvy engine could be an improvement.

So the 1199S is a full 2 seconds slower than the RSV4 over standing mile - 29.08seconds Vs 27.02 seconds for the RSV & 27.88 for the RC8. That's eye opening & not in a good way. I'm guessing the S1000RR is at least 0.5 sec quicker still...

Anyone know the Standing mile time for the 1198SP?

Having owned the rsv4 aprc I can tell you that the panigale once set up feels better, more grunt, better riding position, more planted and the looks speak for themselves!

Having worked with the RSV4 race and road for 3 years I can say it is a fantastic bike but not a race winner or even competitive unless at world Superbike level at which point it is a completely different bike to the bike you can own.

The Panigale on the other hand is winning races including world super stock in its 1st year, let this speak for itself and stop taking to much notice of magazine tests that were not even aware that the suspension linkage should be on P and not on F for road tests.

The BMW to ride is bland and not comparable with either of the Italian bikes, yes it's fast once over 8000rpm great if that is what you want.

That's reassuring AR - thanks.

Do you see my point RE there seems like a much easier way to reduce weight than the lengths they've gone to with the Panigale. How do you think the new oversquare 1199 motor would have been like in a lightened 1198SP? Maybe Ducati should make such a bike - wouldn't take too much in terms of development??

I'm thinking differently...... I've owned a 916, 996, 748, 1098, 1198s and finally an 1198sp I have loved all of them because they are different from the other road bikes in almost every way, the 916 was a stunner on the track but a pig to ride on the road day to day. But i still loved it all the same.

Bottom line is I'm ignoring all the tests done by the papers and magazines..... There is one opinion that counts and that's mine, after all it's my money that's paying for it.

And after being on my dealers demo for the last two days I know I have made the correct decision. For me it's an amazing bike!

1199s Tricolore hurry the fudge up!!! 18th delivery.... Fingers crossed!

GCD said:

..... There is one opinion that counts and that's mine, after all it's my money that's paying for it.

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Amen brother.....

I find it interesting why so many people take what mags say as gospel.

I also find it totally unforgiveable that Ducati let bikes go out to dealers and eventually customers with no clearly defined suspension setting.

By that I mean the F and P setting that is the topic of discussion at present.

Many years back, Suzuki released the 1100k. At the first pre production tests, journalist riders said it needed a more front end bias. Suzuki listened, adjusted and completely and utterly made, without a doubt, the worst handling GSXR ever made.
I know this as i raced one, crashed it seriously and it killed someone I knew, Phil Mellor.

Manufacturers make mistakes. Not saying Ducati have but they have made an error in giving the mags bikes with track settings to test on road.

I happened to be at the AR buliding and was party to a conversation Rich was having with the Performance Bikes editor Matt Wildee. He had been given an 1199 and didn't even know that the setting was on F and not on the road biased P.!!

If a mainstream bike mag doesn't even realise, how the hell will the rest of us?

Rich has also mentioned elsewhere that JHP (John Hackett Performance) were also unaware that bikes that had been delivered to them were on the F setting.
JHP themselves commented to Rich that this was incorrect.

As an avid race follower I was aware of the AR tie up in the BSB series and his comments about the Aprils is right on the mark.
Look at the 1st WSB race at Monza. Biaggi's bike lunches another engine!
Last season WSB 26 races. Biaggi's bike ate 28+ engines..!!!

As for the worries about top speed (covering clocks etc) it's common practise for manufacturers to hide stuff before release.

I really hope Ducati do a press release to clarify all our concerns.

It'll put potential buyers minds at ease, current owners minds at ease too.

And finally having heard all the horror stories of Pans blowing up at tracks, wasn't it great to see them win at the fastest track...?

Too damn right it was..!





Just my tuppence worth..! (2 cents in America.!)..


.

Bottom line is I'm ignoring all the tests done by the papers and magazines..... There is one opinion that counts and that's mine!

1199s Tricolore hurry the fudge up!!! 18th delivery.... Fingers crossed![/QUOTE]



Totally agree....................



















Except the bit that you're getting the Tri...........









I hate you.!........









Wish I had the money....





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Great post - thanks.

Ok I think maybe we should all stay quiet until we've ridden the 1199! And let's not expect consensus even then - have you guys seem how many Gixxer owners claim their K6 /K7 or whatever Gixer swear blind that in reality their bike is quicker than the S1KRR?!

That's great news the Pan won a SS race - I knew it got pole & was leading before rain interruption in the first race.

Thanks for the reassurance guys, I think I'll be ok for the next 48hrs until I pickup my bike!